h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

(I'm asking a mathematician - hold on)
He says - "God coefficient - help?" I don't think he's au fait with the concept, he's up to only 6th form maths. He says - "God I get, coefficient I get, but not the two combined."

Korzybski said "The map is not the journey." AE van Vogt took that and ran with it, in such magna opera (plural of magnum opus anyone) as 'World of Null-A'.
Nevertheless, you have a valuable point Toxx.

Experiment has shown that there is a minuscule but measurable loss of mass that takes place at death. Or so I have read...
(Just weighing in - ha! I kill me!)

"where is the "kill everyone and take all their stuff" rule leaking in from?"

I suppose that could be mankind's idea that grabbing everything at all costs,ensures survival.

Guess you're right, Moth. It can't be a rule though under Kant's stipulation. You'd have to want it to apply universally. You wouldn't subscribe to having your stuff grabbed. So it's a behavioural tendency but not a rule in philosophical terms, I guess.

God in terms of existing is an oxymoron, existing implies survival.

What does God have to survive?

Della
"Loss of mass that takes place at death."

Well what d'you know?
That works for me on SO many levels

Toxx
Yes it's behavioural tendency which has led to the survival of man.
The more I have = the longer my chances of survival.
It's hard wired.
An equation that when it get's out of hand, causes the things we perceive to be 'bad'.
In philosophical terms we can 'over ride' the behavioural programming, but that dam survival instinct kicks in all the time.

FACT or FICTION

The general belief amongst the contributors to this thread is that in order to determine something as a fact it has to be proved in empirical terms? OR that facts are personally held beliefs that have been justified in one way or another by what might be termed 'logical' reasoning that leaves the believer with no reasonable doubt about its truth; henceforth it is understood as fact.

I believe in GOD

GOD is a fact in my life

I cannot prove the existence of GOD

IF the existence of GOD could be proved there would be no need to have faith in GOD

It is apparent that GOD is FICTION to most people in this debate and that the FACT is that there is no GOD.


{the first 'rule' of fundamentalist anything is that anyone who applies logical questioning to their one true god belief is a devil worshipper and best avoided at all costs.} Moth: post 6656

Moth and Toxx, you don't strike me as devil worshippers and I don't think that it will help to avoid you at all costs. The use of logic in attempting to determine the existence (FACT) of GOD is apparently pointless and the only way that I have come to the conclusion that GOD is FACT is through real experience. An experience that flooded my heart and soul; prove that didn't happen, NO better still reason it away with a LOGICAL argument.

I had an education at a multicultural school where we discussed all kinds of faiths and philosophies in a weekly class on the subject. We learned Sanskrit and the Vedic teachings alongside the study of Plato, The Bible, Marsilio Ficino to name just a few. We learned of the Hindu Gods and the Greek and Roman Gods - Hundreds of them BUT now many years later I have experienced GOD and that is in FACT the real GOD that created the universe in which we all live.

I hope this is of interest to the discussion and I look forward to hearing any responses to it.

Have a good day.

"It is apparent that GOD is FICTION to most people in this debate and that the FACT is that there is no GOD."


This isn't so, please note that it is a fact that the majority of people here believe in something we term god.

Mattyhoo Are you a fundamentalist religionist? If not then the 'devil worshipper' quote was not meant for you.

Hi Diversity.

Yeah well it is a bit strange isnt it? Its down to altruism in the end, but as you said

"Now, if that is such a prevelant thought, through out time, where is the "kill everyone and take all their stuff" rule leaking in from? [pirate]"

Tricky one that because this is what Toxxin was talking about. Free will allows people to do immoral unaltruistic things, and god rather than leaping from the collective cosmos and righting the wrongs of his creation sits on the sidelines and allows it to happen. How can he possibly be benign we ask? Omnipressent? well whats the good of that if you dont intervene?

In short the cynicism that people feel can be lickened to what Arturo Perez Reverte has his character say about God in his Novel "the fencing Master"

The venertavble fencing master Don Jaime says:

"God? He does not interest me.He allows the intollerable to go on. He is not a gentleman" He say with scorn.

The best answer I can give is from JRR Tolkiens Silmarillion. Although by no means a theologian or even a philosophy he was definitly a literary artists who thinks. In his world view God or "eru the one" pretty much was at the start of the world but absolutly palys no part in the Simarillionor the Lord of the rings, in the same way our God plays no part in our affairs. Now Im quickly going to find the passage that I found quite illuminating on what I believe to be the nature of God... Ill be back in a couple of Minutes I I can just find a copy of The silmarillion and a espresso and a

Yo Ford. I believe the view you mention in your final paragraph is 'Deism'.

Hi Matty. I, for one, don't accept that anything can be known with certainty. Even mathematical propositions are subject to doubt.

This also applies to personal experience, although one of my nephews would insist that he knows God, or rather the Holy Spirit, as a sort of friend.

Quote del dia:

'D'you remember how Jesus was led into the wilderness and fasted forty days? Then, when he was a-hungered, the devil came ot him and said: If thou be the son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But Jesus resisted the temptation. Then the devil set him on a pinnacle of the temple and said to him: If thou be the son of God, cast thyself down. For angels had charge of him and would bear him up. But again Jesus resisted. Then the devil took him into a high mountain and showed him the kingdoms of the world and said that he would give them to him if he would fall down and worship him. But Jesus said: Get thee hence, Satin. That's the end of the story according the the good simple Matthew. But it wasn't. The devil was sly and he came to Jesus once more and said: If thou wilt accept shame and disgrace, scourging, a crown of thorns and death on the cross, thou shalt save the human race, for greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Jesus fell. The devil laughed until his sides ached, for he knew the evil men would commit in the name of their redeemer.'

- W.Somerset Maugham
(The Razor's Edge)

hi Mattyhoo,

I don't get the sense that there is any debate to be had for you on the existence of God as you have your very strong faith. I mentioned on this thread awhile back that all belief or disbelief in God requires a leap of faith, so that atheists as well as believers must have faith to believe in what they do as of course it cannot be proved either way. It's only the agnostics who lack faith and prefer not to make up their minds one way or the other.

It sounds as though you've had a fairly well-rounded education with regards to various other religions and god myths - and from that you have chosen to believe in the Christian version of God based on your own personal experiences.

But it's good to hear your views in this debate. As you mentioned earlier, there don't seem to be many 'true believers' on this thread, perhaps because they don't feel there is anything to debate over.

Moth,

If god exists as omnipotent and eternal, having no beginning and no end, then your question is a good one - why should god have to 'survive?' It's just as true that god cannot sacrifice, which is why most gods sacrifice their human counterparts instead.

az

"...of course it cannot be proved either way. It's only the agnostics who lack faith and prefer not to make up their minds one way or the other."

I have been trying to show you a proof for some time, Az, and I don't think you've been able to come up with a plausible argument against it.

I have made up my mind (as least for the present) that we cannot know one way or the other. That makes me an agnostic who HAS made up his mind. It isn't a matter of preference, but one of conclusions reached by reasoning.

I think it's a bit heretical to call Jesus: 'God's human counterpart'!

The mythological devil laughs when the words of the aware are set down in books, because he 'knows' that will bring the greatest evil into the world as people argue back and fourth the true meaning of things they are told rather than the true things they all ready know themselves.
We call this religion and it has little to do with causation of the Universe.

That is so good, Moth. It's why I get my ideas with and from philosophers and not the 'good book'. Some of your sayings are worthy of CS Lewis of 'Screwtape Letters' fame etc.

AZ
If you believe as I do that there are no human counterparts of God but only 'parts' of God, then the sacrifice is a willing thing.
Perhaps the message on the cross is that redemption, enlightenment call it what you will CAN be understood through suffering, although this does not mean that one should don your our hair shirts

I think of Jesus and then I think of the thousands dying along the Apian way and can see very little difference in terms of suffering.
I think of Jesus and can not see anything extraordinary in his suffering when compared to others.
We are our own messiahs and many a mere mortal has laid down his/her life for a loved one too.
Jesus and us are thesame thing. He was more aware of the situation is all.