h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Yup. But if you *could* see it, it assuredly would be pink.

... and made of green cheese, no doubt. Such is the truth value of the terms in counterfactual conditionals.

Are you sure it is reasonable to describe what it would be like to see the invisible?

toxx

We'll see:




I don't see this going both ways: if there never was an ancient Palestine and it's not a recognized country then where is it you're getting this from? I agree that there are 'displaced' people, but I don't agree that they're "Palestinians" when they're actually refuse from their former countries who were obviously happy to get rid of them. Why are some of them not called ex-Egyptians? Or ex-Jordanians?



This does not take into consideration the Jews who live there, thus it makes no sense.



I agree: like his successor Arafat was a puppet for the terrorists who were really in charge but they had, and still have, their own agenda and it does NOT involve making peace with Isreal.

< Israel is the controlling power in those areas.>

Poppycock: there are no Isreali Defense Forces patrolling nor Isreali Police keeping the peace in Gaza or the west bank and the Golan Heights is no-man's land. If Isreal WAS the "controlling power" then their military and police would be present and in charge-this is quite opbviously not the case.

< Do you seriously think that the Israelis would allow the Jordanian/Syrian/Egyptian security forces into Gaza and the West Bank to control terrorism?>

If it were under the cuise of a UN mandate, yes, because the US would be heavily involved. Otherwise, no. Do you really think these countries are inclined to get involved after the whipping they take almost every time they clash with the IDF? Why haven't these countries offered sanctuary for their own displaced citizens? It's because they don't want them.

<<"Oh yes, all those Christian and Jewish suicide bombers-why they're in the news every day.">

Christian and Jewish bombers tend to use


This does not take into consideration the Jews who live there, thus it makes no sense.



I agree: like his successor Arafat was a puppet for the terrorists who were really in charge but they had, and still have, their own agenda and it does NOT involve making peace with Isreal.

< Israel is the controlling power in those areas.>

Poppycock: there are no Isreali Defense Forces patrolling nor Isreali Police keeping the peace in Gaza or the west bank and the Golan Heights is no-man's land. If Isreal WAS the "controlling power" then their military and police would be present and in charge-this is quite opbviously not the case.

< Do you seriously think that the Israelis would allow the Jordanian/Syrian/Egyptian security forces into Gaza and the West Bank to control terrorism?>

If it were under the cuise of a UN mandate, yes, because the US would be heavily involved. Otherwise, no. Do you really think these countries are inclined to get involved after the whipping they take almost every time they clash with the IDF? Why haven't these countries offered sanctuary for their own displaced citizens? It's because they don't want them.

<<"Oh yes, all those Christian and Jewish suicide bombers-why they're in the news every day.">

Christian and Jewish bombers tend to use F14?thread=

We'll see:




I don't see this going both ways: if there never was an ancient Palestine and it's not a recognized country then where is it you're getting this from? I agree that there are 'displaced' people, but I don't agree that they're "Palestinians" when they're actually refuse from their former countries who were obviously happy to get rid of them. Why are some of them not called ex-Egyptians? Or ex-Jordanians?



This does not take into consideration the Jews who live there, thus it makes no sense.



I agree: like his successor Arafat was a puppet for the terrorists who were really in charge but they had, and still have, their own agenda and it does NOT involve making peace with Isreal.

< Israel is the controlling power in those areas.>

Poppycock: there are no Isreali Defense Forces patrolling nor Isreali Police keeping the peace in Gaza or the west bank and the Golan Heights is no-man's land. If Isreal WAS the "controlling power" then their military and police would be present and in charge-this is quite opbviously not the case.

< Do you seriously think that the Israelis would allow the Jordanian/Syrian/Egyptian security forces into Gaza and the West Bank to control terrorism?>

If it were under the cuise of a UN mandate, yes, because the US would be heavily involved. Otherwise, no. Do you really think these countries are inclined to get involved after the whipping they take almost every time they clash with the IDF? Why haven't these countries offered sanctuary for their own displaced citizens? It's because they don't want them.

<<"Oh yes, all those Christian and Jewish suicide bombers-why they're in the news every day.">

Christian and Jewish bombers tend to use F14's and Merkava/M1-Abrams Tanks mate.> Isreal has no F-14's nor did they ever have them. Get your facts straight. I'd personally like to see someone strap on an F-14 or an Abrams, walk into a crowded Hamas meeting and let rip-if it were physically possible. I was raised a Jew, you should get your facts straight before you open your mouth and insert your foot. I was in Isreal when Idi Amin DooDoo hijacked the plane to Entebbe and insipid terrorists shot rockets into the Jerusalem market where we were walking, indiscriminately killing some of their own children and not a single Jew. Don't tell me to "have a look at the real world", for you know nothing of my life experience. How does this unaimed missile compare to guided missiles? There is no comparison. How does using a knapsack filled with explosives and nails in a public place compare to the IDF targeting the site from where this attack was made and/or those directly responsible regardless if they used missiles, phone bombs or a karate chop to the neck. And just how often is this done? You must read the newspaper a lot, they're full of bad information. Smart bombs are self-guided by satellite signals; once they leave the plane they're on their own: THIS IS WHY THEY'RE CALLED SMART BOMBS. Missiles, and bombs, are not used to destroy mosques-you've been misinformed. Twice the moron named Sadr holed up inside a mosque, twice the US forces backed off and twice Sadr gave up. Get your facts straight. "a)" simply because the deaths include innocent women and children and not the military or political people they think are responsible. This is like blowing up the Mets because you hate the Yankees and reasoning that they're both baseball teams anyway. What's "callous" about guiding a cruise missile into a warehouse full of weapons? What's "callous" about picking off single military vehicles in a convoy while leaving the red cross and press trucks untouched? Now you're being put to task for your comments: Name five incidents and be specific. And you call these terrorists "Christians"? What exactly is "Christian" about them? That little cross they wear? If they're wearing a star of David does that make them Jews? And you call these terrorists "Christians" too? I think any "Christians" reading your post would get quite upset at the association. < Today, almost half the population lives in poverty, as incomes have fallen and Palestinians' assets have been exhausted. Living conditions have been further eroded by the substantial decline in the quality of health and education services and the inability of Palestinians to access them.> Some people think it's Isreal's fault that Arafat blew the money he got from all over the world to "help" his people and the people now starve. Let me tell you something about the "education" they're giving their children that I witnessed: at 6 years of age in a "day camp" in Gaza you learn to carry a rifle; at ten you learn how to wear a bomber's vest and press a button; at 14 it's hand-to-hand combat with a knife. This is an education system I would like to see eradicated. It's Arafat's fault that NOTHING was done to quell the attacks and much was done to AID the attacks-such as letting attackers out of jail a day after they're arrested 'because the jail was an alleged target of the IDF and they wanted to protect the prisoners'-what kind of bate is this? It must be camel bate.

<>


Nope. Weeeelll, maybe on this thread

I remember when christian militias in the Lebanon (acting on the orders or at least suggestions of the then Mossad commander Ariel Sharon) marched into the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabrah and Shatilah and proceeded to murder men, women and children.

My headmistress condemned them as acting in a thoroughly unchristian fashion.

From the point of view of the christianity she practices, she was absolutely correct.

However the fact remains that these people identified themselves as christian.

It is a sad fact that many people in history identifying themselves as christian have acted in similar ways (if you want further information, try reading up on some of charlamagne's campaigns against the pagan Saxons or the crusades angainst the Islamic Turks)

'invisible' and 'pink'

Could be invisible to others but pink to those who sense it. There again it could be a feeling that there is a pink unicorn in the garden.

alji

No alji. That isn't how the game works. The unicorn was stipulated to be 'invisible', not 'invisible to some'. Then again, you'd have to change that last bit to 'the feeling that there's an invisible pink unicorn in the garden'. Once again, we get the incompatible predicates 'invisible' and 'pink'. OK, this isn't as flagrant as describing something as both large and small - but you get the idea.

toxx

Sharon was, at the time, Defense Minister: get your facts straight.
At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Sharon#Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre you can find:
"During the 1982 Invasion of Lebanon, while Ariel Sharon was Defense Minister, the Sabra and Shatila massacre took place, in which between 460 and 3500 Palestinian civilians in the refugee camps were killed by Lebanese Christian forces under the command of Lebanese Maronite Phalange militia. The Security Chief of the Phalange militia, Elie Hobeika, was the ground commander of the militiamen who entered the Palestinian camps and killed the Palestinians. The Phalange had been sent into the camps to clear out PLO fighters, and Israel forces had been sent to the camps at Sharon's command to provide them with logistical support and to guard camp exits."
...and:
"The Kahan Commission investigating these massacres recommended in early 1983 the removal of Sharon from his post as Defense Minister."
...and:
"Sharon was dismissed by Prime Minister Menachem Begin but he remained in successive governments as a Minister.
In 1987, Time Magazine published a story implying Sharon was directly responsible for the massacres. Sharon sued Time for libel in American and Israeli courts. Time won the suit in the U.S. court because Sharon could not establish that Time had "acted out of malice", as required under the U.S. law, although the jury found the article false and defamatory."

You can also read about the commission here:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/kahan.html



No! REALLY? I thought this sort of thing was an everyday practice.



So if I simply identify myself as a Martian that makes me a Martian?

< OK, this isn't as flagrant as describing something as both large and small...>

Like those huge shrimps I saw the other day?

<<

No! REALLY? I thought this sort of thing was an everyday practice.



So if I simply identify myself as a Martian that makes me a Martian?
>>

I think there's actually a point to be made here, and it doesn't necessarily requit a sarcastic response. The (somewhat out-of-date) expression that someone doing something morally wrong is acting in 'an un-Christian fashion' does not, historically, usually apply to this sort of event. But it seems ironic, does it not, that some Christians will and have killed in the name of a faith that theoretically espouses love, tolerance and nonviolence. It's really sad that such religious persecution and hypocrisy is indeed a day-to-day occurence in some parts of the world. We in the West must not forget that there are places where it is still not okay to believe what you want to believe.

<>

Well, it was you who first mentioned "Ancient Palestine". Perhaps you could clarify what you meant?

"The Palestinian people" is, as I said, the self identification of the non-Jewish people who live, or formerly lived in the areas now occupied by Israel. You may not agree tht they are "Palestinians", but that is how they identify themselves. There has, of course, never been an independent state of Palestine. Prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, the area was a British Protectorate. No part of it was Egypt or Jordan (which itself only became an independent sovereign state in 1948, following its artificial creation in 1921), and although these countries took over the administration of what are now respectively the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, they never held them as sovereign territory. The people who live there are not called ex-Egyptians or ex-Jordanians because they are not. They are in fact stateless persons.



<>

I fail to see what you're driving at. Before 1948, the area now occupied by the state of Israel was largely occupied by non-Jews. Most of them are now refugees, mainly in the West Bank and Gaza, but in other neighbouring countries, too. Why should the fact that that territory is now settled by Jews make a nonsrnse of the claim that it's former inhabitants feel dispossessed?

<>

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but aren't the areas we're talking about referred to as the "Occupied Territories"? How do hostile foreign powers normally keep control of occupied territory, if not by force of arms?

Well, that's enough to be going on with. Don't want to create a ginormous post that no one will bother reading.

Noggin

Well, if 'Martian' is simply a nominal designation, independent of any semantic force, then 'yes'! If it means that you're from Mars then, presumably, 'no'. Nice try though.

< But it seems ironic, does it not, that some Christians will and have killed in the name of a faith that theoretically espouses love, tolerance and nonviolence.>

No more ironic than muslim militants or any other militant group doing the same thing, under the false name of a peace-loving and peace-preaching religion. The point is that once you start killing people randomly, or because of who they are or what family they were born into, you're obviously NOT christian no matter what label you plaster on your shirt.



I disagree, I think it's always ok to believe what you want no matter where you live. If you're making this public knowledge and this causes problems then it's obvious that you need to keep your big moputh shut, your activities behind closed doors, or move elsewhere. Millions, perhaps billions, of jews have done this for thousands of years in order to survive.

I know what the Jews have done. My mother's family was expelled from several Mediterranean countries over the past six hundred years or so, until they came to Syria... and then they (for obvious reasons) left there to come to the US.

You can practice your religion in your house, sure. You can hide the prayer books and the candles and the kippahs when the secret police come round. But the obvious point is that you have been doing something that is 'not okay', as I said above. It is not 'okay', in the eyes of such a government, to go to schule on Saturday, or to wear a kippah in public or to in any way let it be known that you're practicing your faith.

So it's my own problem if the Nazis come and take me away in the night? It's my fault that I look Jewish and have a Jewish last name? It's my fault that the next-door neighbours looked in my window and saw a menorah? I'm to blame that I was too stupid to close the drapes that one Friday night, and now I'm dead? So essentially, I'm to blame because I live under a regime that thinks it's not okay to be Jewish?

Is that what you're saying, Dr J?

No, Echo. What I'm trying to say is nobody can bother you for what you believe in, they CAN bother you for what you indicate you believe in by your dress, conversations, activities and if they're found your belongings. My family, both sides, came from Turkey via Russia, Germany and a dozen countries in between. My grandfather's relatives were hauled away by Russians early last century. My last name isn't really mine, it's the name of a small town in Germany they adopted to get out of Germany to come to the US. Being a "good jew" does not, accordig to my rabbi and contrary to popular belief, require attending schul, wearing a kippah or saying prayers when your life could be put in jeapordy by those actions. Life is the most sacred thing since there is no afterlife.

When the nazis tried to convert jews by making them go under water and say things pertinent to another religion this did not make then no longer jewish-because these 'converted' people still believed in the same things. This procedure only made the nazis think so, that they had accomplished something, and they allowed the new 'non-jews' to remain living. Those foolish enough to refuse were killed.

Well, I think I see what you're saying, but I still have to correct you there:

It didn't matter whether Jews believed in Judaism or not - it wasn't religion the Nazis were worried about, it was race. The Jewish race. Religion doesn't 'pollute' the gene pool, race does. So I guess this actually ties in to what you were saying, in a slight way. It didn't matter if you were a practicing Jew or not, what mattered was whether you looked Jewish and had a Jewish name and whether your mother was Jewish. You could call yourself a Catholic and go to church regularly and take communion, and they'd still take you away if you looked Jewish enough.

Hi Dr.J.

Can I suggest that we continue this debate without sliding into the ad hominem?

"Poppycock: there are no Isreali Defense Forces patrolling nor Isreali Police keeping the peace in Gaza or the west bank and the Golan Heights is no-man's land. If Isreal WAS the "controlling power" then their military and police would be present and in charge-this is quite opbviously not the case. "

If all you rely on are Israeli Government statements you are probably right. I have a few friends in Medecin Sans Frontieres two of which have just come back from the West Bank where they were acting as independant observers. Their experience shows that the IDF has, in reality, a pretty free reign over most of the West Bank. Night raids on relief centres are common - one of my friends was only not arrested because of her Swiss Passport, The IDF Captain had the centre's entire stock of antibiotics confiscated as it might be used to harm the IDF! He also detained a doctor (a Jordanian to reappeared three days later badly beaten and unable to see out of his left eye - the interrogators had inserted a needle into it).

Her sister showed me her Red Cross Flag. She had used it to try and reach a young boy who had been hit by a sniper from an IDF watch tower near Bethlehem - I know there aren't any IDF there are there?....right. The sniper put two holes in the flag and forced my friend back into the cover of her Ambulance. The boy died. His crime was to walk to a standpipe with a bottle to get water.

The fact that I do not know which fighter bombers the Israeli airfoce uses is as puerile a retort as I have heard in a long while.

I'm sorry you witnessed violence at first hand. I have lived through two civil wars and served my country, I have had to wash the blood from my hands and clothes too many times - I know it is distressing. I would have thought that having experienced it you would be more interested in truth than propaganda.

I also have a very clear understanding of the capabilities of 'guided' missiles, I was a Weapons Electrical Artificer in the RN. Do not believe the pretty pictures they show you on TV. Few guided, smart or cruise missiles hit within 200 meters of their supposed target. If they were that accurate half the dictators and terrorists in the world would already be dead. Even laser-painted targets are missed two-thirds of the time.

The drive-by shootings in the USA were part of a BBC documentary a few years back. I have no research materials to hand, but will endeavour to get them.

Several of the most murderous death squads in Rwanda were led by ordained catholic priests and anglican nuns. Some of these have since been tried but more are presently being 'forgiven' by the Rwandan version of the Truth & Reconciliation Councils.

These people were christians. As were the Lebanese Phalangists and the Serbian Death Squads,. They were christians because they identified themselves as christians. Many were active members of both their communities and their churches. They attended masses, confessions and justified their acts using christian doctrine.

Personally I find it impossible to reconcile how the members of the three abrahamic faiths can continue to call upon the same God to support war and injustice upon each other. You are all as bad as each other and a danger to civil society. It is about time Jews, Christians and Muslims grew up and stopped this stupidity.

A pagan friend of mine once suggested that we should expatriate all practicing christians, jews and muslims back to the middle east and let them sort themselves out . After all they are non-native religions with a penchant for hatred and bloodshed.....

The state of Israel, founded on a primary injustice and a false two thousand year old land claim, will forever be a source of war and violence.

The ultra-orthodox are rapidly rising into the ascendant in Jewish society worldwide and soon will make up 50% of the community (source: rabbi Lionel Blue, R4). On the other side of the fence the fundamentalists gather strength from every assasination and stupid land grab by Israel. This does not bode well does it?

Instead of attacking me how about giving us your solution to this problem?

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\

Ye Gods, Math...

Jez

I rely on information I get from people I know who are curently in the IDF, Mossad and the Knesset. I'll tell you the same thing i've told all of them for over 20 years: if you don't do a full military sweep house-by-house search and remove all weapons and explosives and then seal the borders on the other side leading to Egypt and Jordan you will never see the end of the stupidside bombers, it will only get worse. It has, I am sad to say, become much worse over the years.

Who, in their right mind, would get out of a vehicle while shots are being fired and walk TOWARDS the target? What the IDF soldier did was warn the person that they were entering a dangerous area, this was safer for him than say jumping up and down, waving a flag or screaming as well as being quite effective.

When you're an IDF soldier and 10 year old kids shoot at you it tends to make you a bit defensive. When the locals have been warned to stay out of certain areas because of a military action and they don't and they get shot at, what is it that makes them and others return to those areas and get shot? When locals get shot in certain areas, what is it that makes them go back? Are they into the pain? Are they suicidal? Could be. Fact: they are being promised money for their family when they "martyr" themselves and death is not the end, it's the end of their personal misery until they get all those virgins in heaven they've also been promised. Fact: their families are paid various amounts depending upon how the person died, more if they kill others regardless of who these others are.

It's vaguely interesting, how this appears to be such an 'us and them' situation. Us. The good guys, the ones who can do no wrong and who are fighting for freedom and fairness. Them, the bad guys, the evil terrorists who only want to destroy and kill innocent people.

Aren't they both doing more or less the same thing, though? Aren't both sides killing innocents in their war for personal justice? Who says which side is good and bad, right or wrong, us or them?

Hi Dr.J,

Can the Israelis not see that the tactics they have employed for the best part of forty years have been utterly ineffective? The situation has gone from the occasinal shooting in the street, to airliners and big displays of terrorism (Entebbe, Munich) to the Intafada's and now Suicide Bombings. If they carry on this way I give it three years before some desperate idiots manage to get a dirty bomb into Tel Aviv. Revenge attacks only spawn revenge attacks.

As you have contacts in the Mossad I am very glad I didn't give the names of my friends, especially as one is returning there later this year. I'd hate her to join the 33 disappeared aid workers.

The reason she tried to reach the wounded child was that wild mix compassion and courage that brought her though Darfur eighteen months ago, not stupidity.

Part of my point was that she was shot at from an IDF watchtower in an area where they would insist they are not operating. Also what sort of b*stard would shoot a ten year old child carrying an empty water bottel towards a public standpipe over two hundred meters from his fortified watchtower? Such an act is not self-defence, it is murder - especially when you then deny medical aid for the victim by firing on ambulance workers.

Possibly the same type who shot the British volunteer trying to get children out of the line of fire. The West Bank and Gaza are considered a free fire zone for IDF, whatever their public relations team might say.

As for the 76 houris and $10,000 dollar reward for suicide bombers I suggest you revise your figures. The compensation payments have all but dried up since Iraq was invaded, and a large proportion of the bombers have been identified as secular arabs, nort particularly religious ones.

The origin of the misery of their existence can be placed squarely upon the British as we failed to protect them when our mandate became the illegal State of Israel sixty odd years ago, and the Americans who forced our hand. It wasn't helped by the also illegal actions of the Arab League in response to Israel's founding, an action that has coloured Israel's foreign and home policy ever since.

Since that time Israel has pursued an increasingly desperate and illegal campaign to extinguish the opposition of the arabs to their occupation. Both sides have dehumaised the other to the extent that young men and women on both sides believe the lives of the other are of no consequence.

Deny that if you will.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\