h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>> How is chaos different from disorder? <<

The prefix 'dis' in disorder suggests that
order was the prime state of things and that
this order was dis-ordered. Order was disrupted,
ruptured, overturned. For example, a troop of
marching soldiers might get out of step or even
fling down their weapons and run off in panic.
Disorder is the negative of order.

Chaos does not assume that order ever existed
in the first place. It is without any sense of order
and it offers nothing to suggest that any sort of
order could exist. Everything is in flux, possibly
maleable, but with no direction, pattern or purpose.
In a chaotic state the troop of soldiers would never
have existed, there would be no army, no uniforms
or weapons to be abandoned. And no place to run.


~jwf~

Chaos is more or less a synonym of disorder.
So they're not really different.

But we didn't say 'chaos'. We said 'chaos theory''

Entropy is a physical property of a system in the same way as length, mass and velocity are.

Chaos theory is not. It's an entire branch of physics developed mathematically to try and understand the inherent unpredictableness of certain systems.
(at least that's my understanding - I don't really know anything about Chaos Theory)

Sorry missed that post by jwf. I did say they were synonyms 'more or less'

Perhaps chaos is a measure of unpredictability, while entropy is just disorderly conduct?

One can have a bit of disorder, but with chaos I'm not sure there are any half-measures, its either chaos or not.

What about Ultimate Chaos?

Simon Cowell has a lot to answer to for ...

As strange as this may sound, jwf was actually right. Chaos is more of an absolute state. Entropy describes how an object moves from an ordered state to a less ordered state, so more of a relative thing. You might want to have a look at this little clip of Dr Brian Cox describing entropy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQSoaiubuA0&feature=youtu.be

>> As strange as this may sound, jwf was actually right. <<

As patronising as this may sound, I am really
starting to enjoy watching Xanatic mature.

Good on ya, lad!


~jwf~

What Brian calls a *law* I call a theory.
Given its weight in science, I could elevate it to Axiom.
But this theory has problems, at least the way Brian stated the *law.*

If things ALWAYS move from ordered to less ordered, how did they get ordered? I know some point to GOD. Others suggest the *law* is only a step in man's understanding.

Seems to me that what man makes is subject to destruction.
What the universe produces is cyclic.
But even that is only a hypothesis yet to become a theory.

When our universe was created there was.... (complete this sentence with at least one appearance of the word 'entropy').

"When our universe was created there was.... (complete this sentence with at least one appearance of the word 'entropy')."[Devonseaglass]

I'm too young to have been around when it was created, so I *can't* complete the sentence. I'm applying for parole,if you want to know the truth!

>>As strange as this may sound, jwf was actually right. Chaos is more of an absolute state. Entropy describes how an object moves from an ordered state to a less ordered state, so more of a relative thing. You might want to have a look at this little clip of Dr Brian Cox describing entropy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQSoaiubuA0&feature=youtu.be <<

Brian Cox is wrong.
a) The second law of thermodynamics doesn't explain "why" "time" only runs in one direction. It is a description of how things change with time.

b) Secondly sandcastles do spontaneously form in the desert. You saw right there on the video a lump of matter lifting up another lump of matter and forming a sandcastle.

we seem to differ on the meaning of *spontaneously*.

The word gas arose from a mishearing of the word chaos.

too da loo

>>..sandcastles do spontaneously form in the desert. <<


"Castles made of sand,
melt into the sea,
..eventually."

- Jimi Hendrix, 'Voodoo Child'


~jwf~

AE Hill: When scientists refer to something as a law, it is because it can be expressed using a mathematical formula. It is not about how important it is. Also the law of thermodynamics describes how things change, it doesn't really touch upon what caused the order in the first place. However that appears to be due to how the universe started out being very small, with energy and mass compressed. Similar to how a gas within a small space is more ordered than it will be once it is let into a larger space, where the atoms have the chance to move about freely. Eventually the atoms in the universe will have spread out evenly, and we will have no more stars being formed, no life and no heat. It's referred to as the entropic heat death of the universe.

Chaos and disorder are not synonymous in their technical definitions.

"Disorder", in the sense of higher entropy states, is or at least can be random, i.e. stochastic.

"Chaos" in its technical sense refers to systems that are deterministic (i.e. the result of the operation of relatively simple laws) but sufficiently complex and dependent on initial conditions that predicting them with those simple laws is impossible. The weather is the perfect example. It's a system governed by some really, really simple principles - fluid dynamics, heat transfer (really simple if you're a chemical engineer, I guess...), but which is so dependent on initial conditions that after you've run it for a while it's completely impossible to predict precisely, even in principle.