h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

In retrospect, this is not the first time you have queried
the h2g2 Community on the question of ethics in situations
of notched services.

I seem to recall an overpayment or credit on a bill you were
wondering whether to pay or if you should point out the mistake.
Or perhaps it was receiving too much change. I cannot recall
the exact details, but my memory is that most here agreed that
you ought to enjoy the benefit of the error. So it was quite
surprising to see that this time there was so much pressure
to do the 'right' thing.

I suspect that it's because this time the loss appeared to be
suffered by an individual rather than some company or government
agency. He was obviously undeserving but so many here still felt
it was morally wrong to accept the divine justice of his loss.

Hmmm...
Do you recall the other thread?
It would be interesting to compare individual responses.
I don't think I posted there but this time it seemed someone
had to point out that morality has little to do with justice.

~jwf~

notched should read botched in the first paragraph

Now both seem spelled wrong somehow.
Ah well..

~jwf~

It was some beer I'd bought over the phone and they hadn't charged my visa. I'd already drunk or given away half of it before I realised. In the end I phoned them, and talked with two different people, and they still didn't sort it out, so hey ho. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/F19585?thread=7887909 The big difference between that situation and this one is that it didn't cost me to order beer from them. I've been meaning to order some more ....

>> it didn't cost me to order beer from them.

I mean, if they'd put the payment through, it didn't cost me anything other than the agreed price. The tradie however has cost me not only the agreed price, but the fix cost (money, time, energy), and all the time and energy that went into dealing with him not doing what I was asking, and to top it off him not being upfront about his screwups.

Free beer!

I remember now.

Interesting that so many then thought it was OK
to benefit from the incompetence of others when
there is free beer to be had but now they don't
seem to be quite so 'laisez faire'.

~jwf~

I think it might be a tool thing

Yes, it seemed to be more about conscience rather than ethics, although Ben did point out that keeping something you haven't paid for is theft (I'm not sure if that's true here or as absolute as that).

It's certainly been interesting in this thread to see that so many people would perceive me as unethical or on a downward slope. It helped me understand the difference between abstract ethics and in practice ethics and where I stand on those.

at Peanut.


I had to laugh at MB's post in the beer thread:

"The concept of owning beer which I hadn't paid for and NOT drinking it doesn't appear to register on my spectrum."

And there in that eloquently honest quote
lies the answer to any ethical question that
does not involve physical pain or harm to any
another living creature.

Free beer tastes better though.
So there must be a psycho-physical connection
to our ethical centers.


~jwf~

I'm hardpressed currently to see the point of ethics that ignore fairness. I know they're not the same thing, but the idea of the Good triumphing over the Fair every time doesn't sit right.

Follow up (and I'm sure this will lower myself in the estimation of some ).

A couple of weeks ago I get a text from the tradie saying he has the timber that will fix the thing that he messed up, and he needs to get back the paint sample he left me. I'm about to go out of town so I tell him the sample will be in the letter box and to leave the timber on the porch. I think I even thanked him. I'm away for 5 days and when I get back the paint is still in the letter box and the timber isn't there (and bearing in mind I will still have to pay someone to use the timber to fix the thing).

Then on Friday, I get another text, saying he forgot to pick up the paint, and do I have one of his tools? No mention of the timber, or the other tools. I was really busy, and I don't want to have to talk with him face to face, so I thought about it for a day and decided that I would ask him for his address and say I'd drop them off to him next time I was passing. I got busier on the weekend, and now I've realised I haven't replied to his text yet. But I'm pissed now because 'ethically' I am supposed to run round after him and make sure he gets his stuff back.

I have seen him a couple of times at town events before that last text, just in the distance, and I'm fairly sure we're both avoiding each other. If I do see him, and he stops to talk to me, it will be very hard for me not to tell him what I think of him and the work he did. I don't imagine either of us will enjoy that. Also, in the mood I am in I can be, let's say very direct in my opinion, and then he'll no doubt feel shit, and then I will for making him feel that way

I'm not sure what I will do next, but I suspect nothing, not because it's the right or wrong thing to do, but because I'm overloaded as it is and putting energy into sorting out his mess isn't likely to take precedent over sorting out things in my life that are important to me.

> and then he'll no doubt feel shit, and then I will for making him feel that way<

IMO there is absolutely no need to feel shit for making someone feel that way if you feel they deserve it..and you need to do that. All's fair in love and war.

(But to be honest I can't really begin to get my head properly around the convolutions here...

Taking care of oneself is very very important.

But then we are human..and can't help ourselves caring about others..(I'm glad I'm human..ultimately )

>>..because 'ethically' I am supposed to run round after him
and make sure he gets his stuff back. <<

I thought we'd agreed you would not admit to finding his tools
because he had taken financial advantage. You were supposed to
either deny knowing anything about them or simply refuse to talk
with him until he had made good on the original work.

It's a pain being an honest and ethical person aint it.

Oh well.
Have to admit I've been caught ought the same way a couple
of times. That's the unfairness of being a fair person.
The Truth will always out. Justice is often denied.


~jwf~

ought out

Another Jungian slipstream!


~jwf~

>>
I thought we'd agreed you would not admit to finding his tools
because he had taken financial advantage. You were supposed to
either deny knowing anything about them or simply refuse to talk
with him until he had made good on the original work.
<<

Not sure I went that far I doubt that I could lie about the tools if he asks me to my face. And I'm not willing to have him fix the original work because I find him so terrible to work with. It's a bind.

Yeah. Life's a bitch and then you die...

No 2 ways about that.

Write to him say you aren't happy with the work and tell him he can pick up the tools when he puts the work right.
Next time you use a contractor give them written instructions, they will know where they stand then and that they can't use the excuse they didn't understand what you wanted.

>> doubt that I could lie...if he asks me to my face. <<


I have the same problem.

Well it's not really a problem because I have come to accept
that I cannot lie so I don't even try anymore. I value Truth too
much. And lying is such a cumbersome burden to the mind
- trying to keep all the details square with each other.

I might tell him I am keeping the tools in place of value not
received - and he might punch me in the nose if I said it to
his face. It`s bad enough being an honest man but I`m
also a physical coward into the bargain (at least where money
is the issue).


~jwf~

That's the crux of it ~jwf~ (~jwf~!!!), I'm still unclear in myself if I feel I can keep his tools as payment (ethically).

Tucuxii, I explained earlier in the thread, a few times, why having him fix the mistakes isn't an option Written instructions wouldn't have made any difference in this case, he just wanted to do things his own way, and then one of the things he did he did badly.

I think what I need to learn from this is how to not pay a contractor at the end of the job until I am satisfied with the work. In this instance I just wanted to get rid of him (I was paying him at the end of the day), and I wasn't quite clear about how I really didn't want him back.