h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

There is a difference between "gay" and "camp", and disliking camp behaviour is not necessarily homophobic (though I'd guess it often is homophobic; and gay people are not immune to homophobia either). However, I would suggest that this sentence suggests more than a dislike of campness: "Most of the gay men there don't hold back; they have the put-on camp voices, mince around constantly and make it their mission to let everyone know which team they're batting for if you show an interest or not."

That's homophobia. I've seen worse (I hang around Box Turtle Bulletin and used to post on CARM: I've seen a lot worse), but it's still homophobia.

TRiG.

>He called them 'faux gays' because his reckoning was that real gay people are happy with who they are and those who flaunt their gayness need a reality check.

So Fords are you quoting your acquaintance because you agree with this idea, or just for general interest?

I'm pretty sure he'd call me a *real gay person*, well perhaps not, but at least a *real bisexual* But I'm not always terribly happy with who I am, so I'm not sure. I've never been to the pub at the end of my street with a girlfriend..full of white rough types who sneer at non straights; have frequently had all manner of nasty stuff said to me in patois, from the local Afro Carribean community..though that's less so these days; have had one relationship destroyed by the local bornagain community; still haven't come out to my parents because of my knowledge of my mother's nasty vicious views of gays. So no I'm not always happy with who I am.

So maybe I'm not a real bisexual. Yes I don't flaunt it, which would make me 'faux' but in real life I tend to hide it. Maybe I'm an 'unreal bisexual'?

You say,

>You're gay, good for you - now get over yourself because nobody really cares.

So no-one really cares eh? How many gay footballers have you ever heard of? Oh maybe they are all straight, because we always hear whether or not the latest England manager, will or won't let the WAGs come along (Wives & girlfriends), so apparently gays don't play for England. The only professional footballer I ever heard of not being straight, comitted suicide.

I'm amazed at the limitations of your ideas. Really amazed. And actually I really do wish I was more 'faux' and less 'real'. I say good on people who are like that for having the guts to not give a p*ss what others think..and after centuries of such deep and hideous denial and hiding which is basically psychotic in what it does to people's minds, it's hardly surprising that some are going to the other extreme in terms of announcing visibility.

Since they're still trying to kick racism out of football I wouldn't hold your breath for homophobia. They can't even agree on which brand of Christianity or borough of London is accepatable.

It's really difficult for straights to understand why gay people choose to act the way that they do.

There's a lot of pressure on straight people to act a certain way to impress the opposite sex, men have to be macho, etc, and women have to be feminine. But if you are gay that pressure just isn't there, isn't there at all. There's a wider range of 'acceptable' behaviours, in fact many people find that they can just be themselves and still pull, so if they never wanted to be that feminine then they can be a bit more masculine.

>> I know gay people who also can't stand the put-upon gayness of some. Are they bigots too or is it okay for them to feel that way?

How do you (or they) know it's an affectation? Why are you so unwilling to give up the idea that being that camp really is who they are?

To answer your question it is is clearly more acceptable (or less unacceptable) for people within a minority group to criticise other members of the same minority group. If I say I'm being a bimbo it's self-deprecating and ironic because "bimbo" refers generically to women. But if I say I'm having a blonde moment, then it's stereotyping because I'm a brunette.

There are several different strands to behaviour which shut down diversity.

Stereotyping is assuming there's that certain behaviours align with certain groups - eg that blondes are stupid or saying that the stupid person working in the call-centre at your bank sounded like a blonde. Or being surprised that a very girly-girl is a lesbian "because lesbians are butch, aren't they?"

Then there's normativity - which is pressure to conform to a group's cultural norms. On one level it's dress codes at work. On another it's the social pressure that says that singing in Am-Dram at weekends is normal and therefore ok to talk about at work, but that performing as a drag artist at weekends is perverted and therefore not OK to talk about at work.

Neither stereotyping nor normativity are discrimination as such, but both of these are discriminatory pressures. They are both extremely common behaviour in people who say "I'm not racist but..." or "I'm not homophobic but..."

Double standards can be quite subtle - A colleague at work who objected to an company-sponsored celebration of Eid at the end of Ramadan one year was perfectly happy to go to any number of company sponsored Christmas parties.

Wanting to shut down diversity - whether that's camp behaviour, or someone flaunting their ability to breed, or someone overtly displaying symbols of their religious devoutness - diminishes us all by shutting down different but entirely legitimate ways of being. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. Etc.

Ben

PS - which is not to say that living with diversity isn't threatening and scary at times. I have to accept overt Christianity through gritted teeth, for example. And be polite to Tories if I meet them socially.

Not disagreeing with any of that, but ...

I have gay friends who despise camp behaviour because they feel it belittles the gay lifestyle and plays up to a caricature. In their words it's a "two-dimensional response from people who aren't actually that comfortable within themselves".

Exactly. But oh no, people have to be so bloody reactionary, flame me and say my comments are homophobic without actually thinking about the point I'm trying to put across.

Let me make myself clear before I leave you to it:

I don't hate gay people and resent the accusations of being homophobic. I just hate the behaviour of those who think it's okay to exaggerate the campness to unnecessary levels.

Have fun tearing that one to pieces, kiddies.

/unsub

Seagulls s**t and fly away. You accuse us of not engaging with your central point, but you've not engaged with any of the points that Effers, Chris, Z or I have put forward.

I've thought A LOT about the point you've made repeatedly - namely that *some* gay men say *some* others are unnecessarily camp which means it's ok for you to claim your remarks aren't homophobic. (Like it or not they are homophobic. YOU may not be, but those remarks are.)

You re-stated your point for clarity: "I just hate the behaviour of those who think it's okay to exaggerate the campness to unnecessary levels".

You've chosen not to answer my question about that point: I am genuinely curious why are you so convinced that their behaviour is a deliberate and unnecessary exaggeration. The only answer you've given so far is that some other gay people say it is.

Well, I'm a woman, but if I criticise other women - for exaggeratedly playing up painful periods say - does that make it ok for men to say the same thing? That's not a rhetorical question - I answered your direct question about members of minorities criticising themselves, so it would be courteous if you were to answer mine.



Ok, I'll step off the soap box and accept that some of the behaviour you hate may be "unnecessary".

Here are some possible reasons for your colleagues indulging in such "unnecessary" behaviour.

Maybe they are just doing it for fun, as Chris suggested.

Or maybe it's a protest against the pressure of excessive (and "unnessesary") heteronormativity from the straight majority?

Or an ironic piss-take in response to stereotyping by colleagues?

Or just out of mischief, do they do it to annoy because they know it teases, as Lewis Carroll said?

And so what if they do?

It's all part of life's rich tapestry, or it should be. Live and let live: their freedom to be camp is your freedom to be whatever you want to be.



Ach, what's the point?

Ben

On the "I'm not racist, but" point - I'm of the opinion that's not something anyone of any stripe has a real entitlement to say. Offence is in the ear of the listener; thus I can say I do not *wish* to be racist but whether I am or not is not in my position to call. That might sound mealy-mouthed but it's an important distinction to make when people say objectionable things but qualify it by saying I'm Not Racist But. According to who?

If gay guys (and we are always talking about guys - where's the objection to diesel dykes?) want to gay it up that's a) their choice (as opposed to being gay, which isn't) and b) their responsibility. Imagine you have an incurable disease that affects you in such a way it renders you intolerable to most because of what it does to your personality. There is a concept of "Mad Pride" I encountered on a trip to Brighton I went on in a period of extreme lowness. but it was nothing more than a few flyers here and there. I have a t-shirt which I bought in Chicago which elucidates the condition - underneath a smiley face are the words "I'm just one big ing ray of sunshine, aren't I?" . Obviously I have to pick the days and scenarios I can choose to wear it. But it's been a long while to find someone on a dating site willing to meet me in spite of that, since so many treat it as a dealbreaker. A walking tragedy waiting for the end of days doesn't often do it for a girl. Imagine then what it's like for a gay man in a world where others of his kind aren't allowed to advertise it, where coded acts of expression like something tucked into a back pocket are the only real indication of who might be considered trustworthy and potentially good friends. Think you know what that's like? Trust me, you don't.

You draw a good distinction between who you are and how you act, Chris.

Since these threads become a record, I'm going to add in something that I would have said to fords in the hope it would help her move on from where she is now.



I do actually get it. I get that feeling of unease and distaste around a minority group because I feel it myself. I have to accept that - for batsh1t reasons of upbringing - I can feel atavistic uneasiness around people who are audibly or aggressively Welsh. It's racism, pure and simple.

However it's also irrational and runs completely against my values. It disgusts me, and so I control how I deal with it even if I can't get rid of my history. On the one hand there's the risk of over-compensating and being super-nice to the Taffs - FAIL. On the other there's forcing my mind open and acknowledging that I'd happily get this plumber to fix my boiler if he was from West Yorkshire, or that I'd pre-predisposed to like my pal's girlfriend if she was from Dumfries. And - guess what - the plumber's turned out to be a prince among tradesmen and the girlfriend's a peach and a gem. And even better, the experience has undermined my ability to feel racist around Welsh people. This is an internal fight I'm winning.

So what I'm saying here is that I do actually get it. I understand the sneaky, nasty, petty feeling of unease around a minority group. And I also understand the fear a member of a minority group secretly hates you as a member of the majority group, but masks it well. And that of course is the root of so much prejudice.

What you feel only matters to you. What you do with it matters to everyone.



I now return you to your original programming.

B

The very few gay guys I've met, and known who would really* fit in to the 'cammp' type area, and yeh, who do almost come across like they're camping it up on purpose for some reason,

actually when I've got to know them, it quickly becomes quite clear that their way of behaving is just who they are, they're certainly not themselves aware that they're doing it as a 'on purpose' thing.... Of course, weather or not it was something they' did intentially 'put on' at some point, earlier in their life, which then became so engrained in their personality that it was* their personality is I guess hard to tell
err, lettuce just say they didn't have any real reason to 'camp it up' to convince me they were gay or anything...

http://www.afterelton.com/people/2009/6/butch-it-up

Apologies for the link tennis, but the above article is really worth a read. Looks at a lot of the issues surrounding camp blokes and the pressure on them to butch up.

There are plenty of homophobic gay men, I used to be one of them, and it often goes along the line of calling camp blokes fake gays and all of that nonsense. While I've never gone that far, I used to have very little patience for camp blokes, I've never dated an effeminate bloke for very long and even now I can find myself feeling awkward around camp blokes.

The irony is that, while most of the time I come across as straight and it's very rare for someone know my sexuality until I decide to tell them, I can be very camp and I do play it up some times. I think for me, I've spent so much on the outside of mainstream life I just wanted to be normal and being camp didn't fit in with that. Thankfully it's something I'm getting over as I grow up.

Why do I camp it up at times? I guess there's a whole bunch of reasons. Sometimes I genuinely can't help it, it's completely innate, like when I was out walking through the Yorkshire Dales in beautiful sunshine and I came across a field of bluebells and I started skipping and singing.

As the article says, sometimes I just don't care about this because I'm over the idea I have to act normal: I don't care about coming across as a total when I'm talking about films or TV, so why should I care about coming across as a total when I'm talking about music or blokes or gossiping? And, by and large, people don't expect me to act in those ways any more and that's quite liberating.

I think more blokes wish they could be like this: I attend a group therapy thing where a group of blokes get together and talk in a way they never feel they could talk outside the group: about emotions and hopes and fears. The group is a safe space where they don't have to act like "men" and its fascinating to see how people act in a place where societies mores and expectations are switched off. Interestingly, I'm the only gay bloke there and I'm often the most restrained and guarded. Make of that what you will.

Then there are the people who do expect me to act in certain ways and, let me tell you, they are *hilarious*. There are few things funnier than camping it up in the presence of these people who expect people to conform to certain behaviours.

It took me a while to appreciate it, because I used to act that way myself, but their reactions when you flounce around and speaking in a feminine voice are ing hysterical. Then going straight back into more butch behaviour confuses the hell out of them.

Getting over my own internalised effiminaphobia is still a work in progress, but I'm starting to get it. The final line of the article I posted above (spoilers!) is a question: why should they have to?* I'm finally getting that.

Plus, there's few things more dramatic than seeing a rugby player chinned and downed by a guy in drag. That cleared up some stereotypes very quickly.

*For a really interesting take on this idea just watch X-Men 2 and listen to the conversations between Nightcrawler and Storm and Mystique and Nightcrawler. Although superficially they're talking about being mutants, you don't have to dig very deep to realise they could easily be talking about being camp or gay.

I forgot an important point in that rather over-long post. For some reason camp behaviour is reviled far above other forms of annoying/irritating behaviour.

No-one gets that wound up when I have a nerdgasm over Doctor Who or I get very wonkish over an area of politics, even though both can be pretty damn irritating, but as soon as I start camping it up some people take mortal offence. And then I camp it up some more

> I used to have very little patience for camp blokes, I've never dated an effeminate bloke for very long and even now I can find myself feeling awkward around camp blokes.

Yes HI. I've never even in the slightest fancied so called 'butch lesbians'. Can't really relate to it, besides never having had long hair or liked wearing dresses/skirts. More tomboyish stuff I'd say really. I don't have problem with Ford's personally not much liking OTT homosexual behaviour.

But it's one thing to say that, and another to suggest no-one really cares about sexuality anymore and people should get over themselves, (yes things are much much better but there are still big difficulties, particularly within various loosely defined sub groups), and also the idea of such people being pretend and 'no true Scotsman' etc. The whole butch thing seems to have really calmed down now in the lesbian community and a lot of the political stuff like 'Lesbian separatism' which I completely disagree with and actually don't think is at all healthy for children if it's growing up in some monoculture that excludes men. But then I don't like excessive separatism in any group. It's not a judgment on how really gay they maybe, or that there aren't certain reasons for such behaviour given the history of gay/lesbian treatment.

The main time personally I'll really camp it up is largely just to embrass friends
Then of course there can be the whole predjuice within the so-called gay community; especially often directed against those who are bisexual, many gays really can be quite nasty against someone who identifys themself as bi rather than gay

Interesting article HI, which hits the nail on the head.

Am I the only one who sees a strong subtext of misogyny in there as well?

Ben

>>Am I the only one who sees a strong subtext of misogyny in there as well?<<

No, you're not.