h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

So far the questions I've posted to Ask h2g2 have been aimed at our friends from the States. Let's face it, your country confuses the hell out of a lot of British people. Well, here's another one.

Why do you talk about 'a fourth' instead of 'a quarter'? After all, 25 cents is 'a quarter' not 'a fourth' and two pints is a quart(er of a gallon), so you must have had the word at some stage in your history. I assume that the change was made after 1776, when you broke away from Britain. Or maybe the British used to use the term 'fourth' as well and it's us that have changed.

Any linguistics experts out there?

Hello Cheerful Dragon...Unfortunatelly I cannot answer the question that you posed above. As a typical "Damn Yank", I have no idea why our language has diverged over the past two hundred years. Perhaps it is due to our forefathers (in the U.S.) culture shock as they encountered the Native Americans who had a different view of reality...(Pretty philisophical huh?).
Here is one for you to think about...
Why do the English/British people talk about the "Boot" being a part of a car? Everyone knows that a boot is something you put on to go "wandering in a swamp".(It helps keep the poison snake bite from penetrateing.)
Why is an apartment called a "flat"?
Why is an elevater called a "lift"?
ect...ect...ect..

Hmmmmm. I'm not really sure what this is a question about. The term "fourth" is a mathematical term used to describe a fraction, just like a third, fifth, etc. But you knew that, right?

A "quarter" is just another term for a fourth, and they are sometimes (though not always) used interchangably. Sometimes you would read 3/4 as "three fourths" and sometimes you'd say "three quarters". It's just a matter of preference, I guess. Those folks who are more mathematically inclined would favor the more numerical term (fourths), I suppose. And those who might be more of a literary type might like quarter, since it's got that cool q in it.

As for etemology, both terms refer to the number four. Quarter is from the Latin, and fourth is from Old English.

Whilst not definitive, Bill Bryson's book Made in America has a whole host of answers to such questions. Indeed it traces the history of american from ealist settlers to the present day (including of course those Native American Words that are now part of the language)

Whilst not in his book, but I heard once that the English (ie British English) expression "A pissed as a Newt" meaning drunk, derived from the ammerican "As pissed as a yout " Phonetic speeling there as I do not know how to spell the last word, which is apparently a tribe of Native Americans who were alledged to be always drunk. Does anyone know if this is true?

Chris

Don't know about the 'boot' question, but an elevator is a lift because it lifts you from one floor to another. And an apartment is a flat because it's on one level; if it has two storeys it's a duplex. In both cases, why use several syllables when one will do?

I once had a teacher who said that one of his teachers had told him that people only used 'etc' when they couldn't think of the rest of the answer to a question. I know this is bollocks (British slang for balls (as in male genitals)), but if you can think of any more, please go ahead.

Before you ask, I don't know why we say 'autumn' instead of 'fall'. All the other season names are North European in origin, as is fall. Autumn is Latin in origin. And the word 'fall' crops up in one of Robert Louis Stevenson's works (can't remember which), so it was obviously used in some parts of Britain.

I got curious about the 'boot' question and I like finding out answers to things, so I did some checking up. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, in the days of horse-drawn coaches the luggage receptacle under the coachman's and guard's seats was called a boot. (Don't ask why, it doesn't say!) When cars replaced coaches the luggage space in the car became known as the boot.

Glad I could be of help in inspireing you to look up the "boot" question. My knowledge has been greatlly enhanced,(Seriously Thanks), by such tidbits of data.
(What is a tidbit?)
Also...< sighs shamefully>...Maybe I can keep my ects.to a minimum...< a single tear begin forming in the right tearduct >...Please forgive me...< He falls to the ground writheing in agony>...
Hugs and Kisses
Universal Mote

Autumn is, I thought, the true name of the season, with fall as just slang (probably because of the falling leaves and other foliage).

As for the quarter question.. A quarter (the coin) is 1/4 (one fourth) of a dollar. A quarter to twelve is actually 1/4 of an hour before twelve o'clock. So what's the big deal about using the proper term?

'Nonnie

The correct spelling is Ute, but I have no idea about the rest.

'Nonnie

Probably not far off the mark, though, as Indians are nototious for their alcohol consumption. I had the opportunity to speak with a dude on a bus trip who was on his way to New Mexico to take a job as a police officer. He said that the most common problem out where he was going was with Indians who would find a comfy spot along the road, build a fire, and proceed to get piss drunk. They'd pass out, the fire would die of neglect, and they would freeze themselves to death. So anytime someone called in that they saw a fire along the road, he would have to check it out, and get them someplace warm.

No, fall is not slang. As for 'the big deal about using the proper term', which do you regard as the proper term? Is it one fourth, because that fits in with fractions like 'third' and 'fifth'? Or is it 'quarter' becasue ... (you think of a reason)? I prefer 'quarter' because I'm English and it's what I've always used. Even if I moved to the States I'd still go on saying quarter instead of fourth.

A tidbit (titbit in Britain) is 'a delicate bit or choice morsel (of food, news, etc.) [perhaps from a dialect word 'tid' meaning tender + bit]'

The quote is from the Oxford English Dictionary. You got me curious again, you see. It is unwise to pose a question regarding language when I am around. I just have to go and find out the answer.

And there's no need to ask for forgiveness (given anyway, in case you desperately need it!) I enjoy finding things out. Any excuse, and all that jazz!

It's not a question of etymology, maths or literary usage. I just want to know when and why Americans started using a different word from the one used by the British. Or when and why the British started using a different word, if that's the way it happened.

I'm not certain about this but heres my two penneth worth anyway.

a)
The changes seem to have occurred in Britain with the USA retaining the old preferences.
I base this on a number of old British books which refer to Fall and Fourth, so it would seem that Autumn and Quarter have come into UK English usage later (From Europe?)

or
b)
Another possibility is the areas of origin of the first English Speaking settlers in the US, as word usage varies across these islands even today, so US English may be based on West Country and Irish / Scots usage rather than "Standard" English.

So, Cheerful Dragon, you Brits never use the word fourths anymore? Interesting, especially because the term originated there. Huh.

Wait, you do probably still use it to refer to a number, right? Like a date or a list or something, i.e. the fourth book in the Hitchhiker series, or the fourth of March.

Now I understand your question. I wonder if it had something to do with the American coin. Maybe we Americans started to use the term fourth more often than quarter, to avoid confusing the coin from the measurement.

Isn't it interesting how languages evolve, just like species?

I just checked up in my dictionary (Oxford English) and it gives 'fourth' as being a contraction of 'fourth part' and an acceptable alternative to 'quarter', i.e., it is not slang, a colloquialism or exclusively American. However, it is interesting that the British don't use the word to indicate 'a fourth part', and exclusively use the word 'quarter'.

Come to think of it, I have read some works by Defoe, Swift and Chaucer, which go back to the 17th, 18th and 14th centuries respectively, and I can't recall seeing the word 'fourth' in any of them in this context. If any one out there has proof that the word fourth was used in ANY part of Britain, please post the references here.

Hmmm. Having lived in various cities (such as they are ) in New Mexico since 1983, I can say that I have never seen or heard of this scenario occurring (the one about the fires and Indians freezing to death as a result of passing out and neglecting the fire, particularly by the roadside - I've never seen any roadside fires unless it's a grass/forest fire). While it is a sad fact that Indians (or Native Americans as they prefer to be called) have a greater incidence of alcoholism as a people, this is due to their genetic makeup (at least in part, according to some anthropology studies that have been done out here in the recent past). It is true that New Mexico leads the nation in DWI arrests per capita, a fact that does not make many of us here very proud at all. This might be related to the high incidence of alcoholism amongst various Native Americans, and it might also be related to the fact that this is a very spread out state where nearly everyone drives everywhere as a practical necessity - probably many other factors as well. FYI, as I remember it, the reason they are more susceptible to alcoholism has to do with the fact that, as a race, Native Americans are new to the whole alcohol thing, it being introduced to the American continent some 500 or so years ago whereas those of us of European descent have had far longer time to develop a sort of 'racial tolerance' or resistance to alcoholism thanks to it being around for thousands of years. Just a thought. I wish I had the actual source study so I could verify this again, but I think I got the gist of it.

- JD

Fascinating! I always wondered where the term "boot" came from! I thought maybe in Britian, being a bit more damp than some places, it was where you put those large muddy Wellingtons you wear while walking around the hills of Yorkshire, hence keeping the inside of you car clean ... though that theory doesn't make any sense, since how would one get into the car from the boot without dragging in mud on their socks? Heheh. Dunno what I was thinking.

When it comes to cars (autos), several more differences exist, for example: bonnet (we call it a "hood", which when you look at the two words they seem to have at least come from the same idea), petrol ("gasoline" or just "gas" here, though it's plain that petrol came from shortening 'petroleum' - dunno where we got "gasoline" from), of course the infamous lorry (a "truck" for us, or sometimes a "semi" if it's large enough - not sure where we got these) ... uhm ... there are some more, I know - my Dad once owned a Triumph TR-6 and the owner's manual was entertainingly confusing at first! I know there are some more dagnabbit, but I just can't remember.

- JD

I used to own a fascinating recipe book on English Medieval cooking, and references were made to "a fourth part of a bushel" i.e. "a peck",
and a "firkin" which was a small cask for liquids, butter etc originally holding a quarter of a barrel. A "fourth" or "tenth" part was a visual measurement due to the inability to calculate exact measurements and fractions, and also the widely differing names of measures and their capacities. The measurement of a "firkin" or "kilderkin" in one part of the country could differ tremendously in another region. Consequently if a pound of flour was all you wanted to buy, you might ask for a fifth part or a tenth part of a "kilderkin" depending on its' size.

We happen to use both. Which is proper? I wouldn't consider either of them less proper than the other, be I English/British or United States citizen. We don't say 'One forth to twelve' -- it even sounds odd. 'A quarter to twelve' or 'Three quarters past eleven' or 'Eleven forty-five' ... but not one fourth, three fourths, whatever. That's 'we' as a general rule, of course. If someone choses to use the more technical term, then that is their choice.

And I still think "Fall" originated as slang, but I don't have an entemology on it handy.

Just out of curiousity, why are you searching for yet another reason to bash Americans, anyway?

'Nonnie