h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Yes, but they are bound to the , and to that extent cannot die (while the earth lasts - they are reincarnated.

Just wondering - and lashings of apologies if I'm repeating anyone here - but is it a parable for the war-strewn earth (at Tolkien's time of writing) that all the individuals put aside their petty differences, and unite in a tremendous act of self-sacrifice in order to support the common good? All the wotsit's that march on the black gate to almost certain death, solely in order that the world might survive, albeit also through Frodo's sacrifice as well. So all these warring factions unite in an Esperanto speaking Utopia, and, as a net result of this, the world becomes a better place, evil is banished, and peace harmony and justice for all prevail. Hurrah.

The parable aspect of LOTR is prehaps what is under debate since parables are predominantly about meaning. The broad scope of Tolkiens agenda, ie there isn't a meaning beyond it's value as a story (see earlier posts) mean that he is able to imbue it with lashings of meaning, precicely because it isn't fixed. I believe it also opens Tolikien as a writer up to his unconscious and through that the collective unconscious (We can debate the reality of either of these if we like, personally both concepts make sense to me).

The geo-political framework of the world leading up to WWII and through it and after, has all the usual intrigues and difficulties, and was such an age of dictatorship that it could be argued that even the US was caught up in it (Roosevelt was elected no less than four times and clearly his long tenure in the job, accumulated more power into his hands than any president before or since). See AJP Taylor 'The Warlords' for more.

Despite this or prehaps because of it, there was an unprecedented international consensus that the war against Hitler was just in ways that no other war had been, it seems inconcievable to me that JRRT would not have been influenced by this. BUT.....

I don't think that is what the LOTR is about, or at least not Just that.
There are clearly elements of his childhood fantasies, his experiences in WWI the relationships he has with his freinds, his father (Or prehaps the one he wished he had) his sons his mother the RC priest who was such an important person in his early life, ect ect..

It occured to me writing the above paragraph that what prehaps made JRRT such an entertaining writer was his paradoxical candour. I believe there are many things he writes which come directly from his unconscious, but he does this 'innocently' I wonder if someone had been able to say to him that character is a bit like XXXX or that scene reminded me of YYYY that he may well have said 'Oh yes isn't that interesting' and would then have thought no more about it.

Clearly he seemed to have his hangups, but on the whole they didn't appear to bother him overmuch, and I think that might have been because they were artistic Grist for him.

Probably, you're right to an extent, baadmonkey. But although Tolkien was almost certainly influenced by his war experiences, that's only part of it.
As for Esperanto speaking - Tolkien's obsession was language, and most of the dialogue takes place in what he calls 'The Common Speech.' But each faction has their onw language, which (finding a use for the languages he invented) was probably 40% of his reason for writing.

The WW2 thing comes around time and time again, and i think it'll never be fully settled by anyone. I think thats probibly one of the best things that Tolkiens done through his writing - to make people ask questions. You can read through a page in this thread and look at lord of the rings in a totally new light for each page

I have often wondered if Tolkiens fascination with Language was related to spending the first three years of his life in the Transvall. (Can't spell it right tried 4 variations help a Dyslexic out here)

Those first three years of life are a sensitive time and at three he would have only just begun to develop simple sentence structure when he left, prehaps it was echo's of Bantu and Afrikaans in his unconscious which drove this aspect of his creativity.

I think that the linguistic element (Not to mention the wonderfully drawn maps) which deliver the sense of depth in the whole Mythology he constructs. Certainly his professorial knowledge of language enabled him to weave elements into it which had an internal consistancy which would have been difficult to create any other way.

e.g. In the black speech rendition of the ryme of the ring

Ash Nazga = one ring

hence Nazga means ring

From this you then get the name Nazgul for the black riders,

There are many many examples of this, not least for the names of cities, e.g Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul. The names of members of the same family or tribe are also consistant, so you know someone is an elf, or a Dwarf, or a man (And whether from Gondor or Rhohan) just by hearing their name.

Another feature would seem to be that Tolkien is also quite skilled at giving character to the languages he creates, reading or speaking aloud the Black speech of Mordor sounds forboding and intimidating, Sindarin feels singsong and brings to mind sunlight breaking through leaves, Quenya old, regal, ritualistic and formal.

Another thing in relation to the Languages is the real sense of glee that it seems to me Tolkien appeared to have about them and it is possibly this glee which hooks some aspects of my fascination.

Ash Nazg durbatuluk
ash nazg gimbatul
ask nazg thrakatuluk
agh burzum-ishi kimpatul

There you go.

One ring to rule them all
One ring to find them
One ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.

Which brings to me a little known piece of geek culture.

As some of you may or may not know, a games company called TSR tried to copyright the word "Orc" for their roleplaying game (the infamous Dungeons and Dragons). The Tolkien Estate jumped up and down all over TSR for this in a lawsuit that lasted a while.

So a guy from 'Dragon' magazine is at TSR and gets lost, ending up in the Legal department.
While he is there, a paralegal asks him if he likes her "Engagement circular metal band". As he formulates an answer someone across the office grins and says that his phone is circular metal banding. Someone says it'sa ridiculous phrase, whereupon a fourth person claims that it has a certain circular metal band to it.
At which point, out hapless hero has to ask:
"Are you guys still having trouble with the Tolkien Estate?"

I think you make some very good points about the language, Strontium Dog. (Are you really dyslexic? That must be a right pain in the proverbial... It's Transvaal by the way...)

Gradient

I do like that anecdote appocryphal or not,

Adelaide

It took me 5 attempts to get GCE English 'O' Level, and hours and hours and hours of learning spellings. In my day only rich kids were Dyslexic, and I didn't count as a rich kid (Even though my maternal Grandfather was a teacher) so I was Just Lazy, it took me years to get over that one.

I wouldn't say it was severe but I think that without a spell and Grammar checker it would take me an age to get any of the reports I have to write done.

I have it under control for the most part but I have to stop and work hard over certain words. And no doubt you can tell from my posts that my Grammar leaves a lot to be desired, all my additional clauses and commentary in brackets comes out of having to write thoughts as they occur to me rather than being able to formulate them into a logical sequence before hand.

I also overcompensated in my language as a child and would 'talk clever' even though I hadn't a hope of spelling half the words I would come out with. I probably still do. Mainly though I now proof read over and over again, reading things backwards helps, but I still miss things (numbers too) Just posted 235 for 325 on another thread.

On the Tolkien Language theme, I always envied him, I wish was so creative I could have invented just one Language (not that I could have made the spelling consistant) never mind half a dozen.

StrontiumDog

I transpose figures too...a lot! and I work for a firm of accountants too

I do exactly what you do...read a figure as 746 and it should read 674.

Oh, there was an actual reason for me posting, but I forgot!

I'm doing a guide entry at the moment which is very closely linked with this thread.

If anyone wants to go have a nosey...... <./>A2756487</.> It's in PR atm but things have gone very quiet.

Vicki Virago

It seemed a nice summary of Aragorn, Although he was long lived Aragorn always seemed the most human of the non-hobbit characters to me and I always liked a tale of star crossed lovers.

Strontium Dog's made my first point for me.

I think it says a lot about Aragorn's history without saying too much about Aragorn. Obviously that's a very subjective topic, and the entry handles the history very well (and painlessly for the non-Tolkien buff who just wants the facts, Ma'am), but it would have been nice to see something about the differences between what Prof Tokien wrote and what Peter Jackson put on the screen.

I have a feeling someone has already said this on the PR thread.

And to be honest, VV, the Entry is good to go. It needs minimal sub-editing (if any) and should slot into the EG very nicely. All it needs is for you to decide it's done and I have no doubt a Scout will get to it soon.

It's terrible that teachers labelled you 'lazy'... You make yourself understood here, and express what you want to convey - that's what matters!
I admire Tolkien, I could never do what he did, it's amazing! (I studied Elvish for a linguistics seminar, but I didn't find it easy...)

Excellent entry, VV... I'll have another better read later.

Thanks guys.

It was tricky doing the entry. I could have quite easily gone through and put down the whole plot of the story that Aragorn was concerned in, but I think that would have gone too far. It's knowing when to stop I suppose.

Sorry if I'm repeating something that has already been covered, but as far as I was aware Tolkein denied any link between LOTR and WWII, largely on the basis that the bulk of the story was written before Hitler's rise to power, and long before the war. As I understand it, the languages came first, then the stories grew up as an attempt to create myths for Britain in the same vein as Nordic sagas.

Hi Dibs

Just an asside but are you in search of anything?

Re JRRT and WWII, Even though he denied any direct link, I would be surprised if JRRT would have denied that any story bears a strong relationship to the time it was written in. I think the big difficulty for him would have been the implication that this was all it was about or even the central theme, the books of lost tales, silmarillion ect are the background myths from which the shape of middle earth developed and personally I can see in them an interweaving of Tolkiens understanding of myth and language, and aspects of his own experience.

This is of course true of any writer.

The difference with JRRT is the huge scope he gives to it, more than any writer (in my opinion) Tolkien created a lifes work, a single great opus. Where others create many intersting and at times great works allongside their other work sometimes two or three great pieces, Tolikien to me seems to have created Just one, but with a depth and scope that only a whole lifetime could have given it. (N.b. that 1 includes the Hobbit silmarillion, LOTR books of lost tales ect....)

In my opinion, all of a writer's experiences form her/his work, even if they're not what it's about - so to that extent, Tolkien's first world war experiences did have an effect... (He said once that Sam Gamgee was based on the ordinary soldiers he met in the trenches.)
Nevertheless, the "myth for England" and the use of his linguistic inventions, were the main impetus.

Adelaide

Thankyou, I do worry I dont make myself as clear as I would like, it's nice to get some reassurance.