h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Thank you for the clarification, WD.
By the by, I had a friend with hyperemesis gravidarum, she was hospitalised for some time, poor woman. I didn't know it was fatal in developed countries...

>Thank you for the clarification, WD.

No problem.

>By the by, I had a friend with hyperemesis gravidarum, she was hospitalised for some time, poor woman. I didn't know it was fatal in developed countries...

It can be fatal in developed countries too if not treated in time.

Stay ,
WD

Az:

kea,
Sorry, I couldn't let this go:

<>

I did not call the person arrogant. I referred to a statement he had made. My exact comment was:


His statement had been:


You may think he was being reasonable. I found it an arrogant stance that he thought I should clarify my views at his request while he would only post his views 'if he felt like it'. You may think I was being rude but I referred only to his statement, not to him personally, and I said 'in my opinion'.



Thanks Az . I could have been more careful here too and gone back and checked my memory against actual posts. I think there was a page or so of people sniping a bit and I was surprised because I thought there were some interesting points being lost.

When you take 'his' (sorry I don't remember who it was) posts in isolation like that they do sound arrogant. It's interesting how one can read part of a thread and pick up one thing and then read bits of it later and get something else. I think at the time I did agree that your previous post had been poorly presented. And there did seem to be some tension between you and the other poster. However tension isn't inherently bad. I've just got a theme running at the moment about communication styles, so I'm glad you didn't let _my_ comments pass. Feedback is appreciated





I do try my best to be as clear as I can when I post but sometimes people do misinterpret things. And I am never intentionally rude to anyone - I do try to choose my words very carefully so that I don't say anything personal.



I'm glad you've said this too. I think I'm getting a better understanding of your style.

kea,

The thing is, you can be as careful as you possibly can with what you write but you have no control over how it is going to be read. As you said yourself:

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Also it depends on how the reader views you and all sorts of other variables. The 'tension' you mentioned was (from my perspective) about having someone misinterpret what I was posting and then asking me to defend what *he* thought was my point of view. Which was not my point of view at all. So I found that quite frustrating. Anyhoodle . . .

I would rather be asked to clarify what I have said than be accused of saying something I didn't say and then be challenged to defend the thing I didn't say. So anytime you (or anyone) are ever not sure about one of my postings, please don't hesitate to ask.

az

hi Kelli,

'termination' - 11 letters

'abortion' - 8 letters

Not *too* much extra work to use the proper terminology. Earlier on in this thread I had also been using the term 'abortion' but then learned that 'termination' is the actual term used nowadays.

az

>>I would rather be asked to clarify what I have said than be accused of saying something I didn't say and then be challenged to defend the thing I didn't say. So anytime you (or anyone) are ever not sure about one of my postings, please don't hesitate to ask.<<




We're having a useful debate in this thread. The fact that we can even talk about each other's communication styles when we think someone is being rude or antagonistic says alot.


~~~

I think differentiating termination from abortion as was done before is a _medical_ distinction. Quite valid, and not the only context for discussion.

The shorthand for the current medical term - termination of pregnancy - is ToP. At least in NZ.

Sometimes I prefer to use 'abortion' because it makes people more aware of the seriousness of the topic. Termination distances the speaker from the act, which is probably why it's the prefered medical term (understandably).


~~~

I have a question for people:

Do you consider an early abortion, say 3 weeks, to be the killing of the foetus? Or do you see it as the removal of part of the woman's body, like the endometrium that has grown?

I'm curious as to how people see this in terms of if a death is involved.

And what about earlier, say 2 days from conception?

>The shorthand for the current medical term - termination of pregnancy - is ToP. At least in NZ.

It's ToP in the UK too - medicine is full of acronyms for very long, complex sounding words

I probably should have mentioned that - but I was half running a literature search on a complately different topic


Stay ,
WD

I thought if we are going to use the medical term it might be nice to have an abbreviation.

I thought I should also add that ToP is said tee oh pee, not top. Just in case people start saying top in their heads

Kea, you asked "Do you consider an early abortion, say 3 weeks, to be the killing of the foetus? Or do you see it as the removal of part of the woman's body, like the endometrium that has grown?"

Being male, I probably am not really entitled to an opinion. However, mine is that once the two bits have met and fertilization has occurred, you have an imminent human in-progress. That being said, the act of termination is indeed akin to "killing". Twisting some more, I am also a believer in the sometimes-needed, justifiable, killing. The obvious occassion would be risk-to-life of the mother (existing human vs probably-someday-to-be-human). A little greyer is circumstances of rape, child-abuse, etc. I've never quite come to a definitive position on that.

Next person's opinion, svp

Hmm, Della, if worries about 'polite' pressure from boyfriends or husbands are an issue for you then perhaps you should be argueing for better information in clinics instead?

But anyway, pressure is something that happens in life. I expect that disapproving parents, for example would more commonly be an issue than a boyfriend or husband who doesn't want the troubles of a child, or possibly doesn't want a dead wife/girlfriend.

In the end, we are responsible for our own choices. Society can work no other way.

Reverend, everyone is entitled to an opinion. As Hoovooloo used to say: don't be an apologist for being born with a penis.

Although I would argue that the woman in question is the only one with the right to make the final choice.

Ive been using the word termination since some one enlightend me waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the thread but before that I simply thought they were interchangeable like orthodontist and dentist (someone will probably tell me they're not either).

I dont think it does distance people from the act. Calling a baby a feotus and a feotus makes no odds to me. we all have our own concetion of what those words represent to us anyway. As long as we get across what we mean without being to insulting who cares, pro-life or anti-abortionist it does not matter much to me, but if people insist that they have to be refered to as pro-life then so be it. Its a bit like the word gay it means what you what it to mean. The speaker and the listener make it positive, nuetral or negative. I dont consider abortion to be or sound anymore serious than termination, but maybe thats just me.


Do you consider an early abortion, say 3 weeks, to be the killing of the foetus? Or do you see it as the removal of part of the woman's body, like the endometrium that has grown?

I'm curious as to how people see this in terms of if a death is involved.

You should have said "if a [human]death is involved"

This is the crux of the whole matter its not simply about a lovely glowing woman with a bump in her pleasantly swollen stomach with a lovely longed for cutesy ootsey baby inside her, sure many times that is the case but its not always and whether or not we like it things are often very different. Whether or not we like it there are more outcomes available to humans than those contained in the general mish mash that is nature.

We can and do subvert nature all over the gaff life may be precious to us but we know its no miracle either.

To answer your question I consider it as a very serious decision for the mother. I can call it a peace of flesh if the listener prefers or I can type baby if we want to see that on the scren insted it does not change the physical reality.

Whether it is a boon to the local economy or a blight on your quality of life it is still a twelve lane lump of concrete running past the bottom of your garden. What Im trying to say is that we should allow certain leeway to peoples personal needs, a motorway is a big expensive thing, we all deserve a say in what happens. A baby is a small free thing that one woman carries if we are striving to give all "human" things rights we should not forget the rights and needs of the equally human mother.

We do need terminations and I think that a doctor or dotors willing to work in such feilds (obviously they would be or they'd choose to be dentists or something) should be the ones to decide whether a woman should have a termination if she wants or needs. Id like to see a time when we have a good enough system of contraception that women dont get pregnant when they dont want to but no system of contraception is 100% and not all women get to choose absitnance. I would like to see womens rights respected and a foolproof system of contraception but we all know if we look at things honestly that neither of those is a reality.

As someone pointed out a few pages ago a reality soon may be that we have a way of keeping the very yougest of embryos outside of the womans body. Well Im going to be: a knee jerk reactionary; a traditionalist of the kind I dont like; even a trator to my gender; in my own eyes and perhaps the eyes of others a big hypocrite here. Even if that does come about I think the choice to do it or not should still lie exclusively with the mother.

I know there are men who'd love the chance to have raised the terminated baby, pro-lifers who would sink all their churches money into womb warehouses and liberals who would be pleased that no longer are women tied to the other end of the proverbial apron strings. However even though biology may no longer be destiny it can still be a damn good guide when making decicions and I cant think of anyone better to make those choices than the woman who has the developing life inside her.

one love

Please do not misunderstand, I most certainly do NOT apologize for what I was born with. I find it FAR too entertaining.

And yes, the upshot of any and all discussions is that the woman involved must be the final authority. Assuming reasonable comprehension of circumstances. Hmmm, now supposing another "she" isn't quite as mentally developed as she ought to be, who determines what then??

>Hmmm, now supposing another "she" isn't quite as mentally developed as she ought to be, who determines what then??

As regards learning disablity, the area of whether she understands the situation and is able to comprehend what happens if she consents is the issue.

Informed consent is a tricky one - even in those whom one would not consider 'mentally developed'.

It would be decided on a case-by-case basis.

Stay ,
WD

There's no reason for it to get any messier than any other medical debate, but that's just my opinion and obviously good sense cause Im saying it.

One love

kea,

In direct answer to your question, although I have said it here previously. Your question:

<

Firstly I find the question a bit unclear. Did you mean to say three weeks? As opposed to three months? (which is the usual deadline for elective terminations).

I personally think of a fertilized and growing life as life. And a growing foetus is also alive and, hence, life. As for when this bundle of living cells becomes even a 'potential human' - I cannot say. And neither can anyone else, though many will have an opinion.

An elective termination is quite clearly the killing of a foetus. Whether it is the killing of a human being or even a potential human being remains, imho, a matter of opinion.

I personally believe, I have personally felt, that a foetus growing inside a body is alive and is human. This is my personal opinion. I would not have had a termination if there had not been serious complications involved that threatened my life. This decision was the hardest thing I have ever had to do, it totally broke my heart and ten years later I am still not 'recovered' from my loss.

However.

What I personally believe is obviously not what many other people happen to believe. In terms of when human life starts, etc etc. And there is, quite frankly, no way of proving this. So it comes down to a question of personal belief and opinion.

It comes down to a woman having to make a decision.

And just as strongly as I felt the foetus inside me as my baby - my baby Sarah - I very strongly feel that I have no f**king right whatsoever to *ever* tell another woman how to make that sort of decision. It's just too damned personal. It is just NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS - imho.

Oh gosh, you see every time I write about this I cry! Though I don't usually let on. I now have tears streaming down my cheeks - it is just so upsetting for me. I'm so full of pain and loss and anger (that bl**dy anti-abortionist doctor who would have preferred to see me dead before telling me the truth!) and so much - soooooo much!!!! - sadness about everything that happened.

I guess it is because of this that everytime I hear about a woman having to make this choice I feel so protective and I want to shout at everyone who thinks they have a right to pass judgement - just leave her alone to make up her own mind! or help her if you can! do not DARE to judge her! how dare anybody judge someone deciding something so so so hard???

Yes, some women don't go through all the emotional stuff, it is more a relief that they don't have to go through an unwanted pregnancy. And I also support their right to choose because women will always have many different reasons for needing or wanting to choose this option. As Della likes to say, some woman brag about using abortion as birth control. Well fine - some women, some men, some people do a lot of stupid things all the time. However, they should not be held up as examples of what the majority of responsible and caring people do.

Well, I think I've answered your question, kea. More than somewhat.

az

ps
I am willing to debate anything I've said in this posting but *please* tread a bit gently . . .

OK Della you've got me dander up now

Alexei Sayle, son of a jeweller, father owns a very big string of stores all over London.

Mel Smith, South London Stockbroker family.

Hale and Pace, not sure, but I thought Hale went to Winchester (better than Eton and over £40,000 per year fees).

Mike Harding was one of that band of folk musician/commedians that emerged in the seventies (includes Jasper and Billy). He now runs the most widely heard and respected folk show on British radio, and is a staple at festivals. He's also a mean nonsense-poet, giving even Milligan and Lear a run for their money.

Billy Conolly is possibly the funniest being on the planet. Just saying his name brings a smirk to my face.

Oh by the way, Terry Gilliam has offered to remodel the face of anyone who calls him middle-class (a friend reminded me of the BBC programme in which he described the trials and tribulations of bringing Baron Munchausen to the screen).

Any more for any more milady?

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

PS: to those who think that this conversation is absurd in the middle of an abortion discussion . I think it casts the arguments of the anti-abortion lobby into sharp relief, and is no dafter.

Since Benny Hill has been mentioned.....I have always loved Benny Hill, I have never been offended by his scantily clad skinny girls being chased by the typical "dirty old man" I just think its really funny!! personally I was never particularly fond of Monty Python.

Getting back to the real issue, yes I am sure that women die after having abortions, just as some people have died from going to the dentist, or by having a simple routine operation, everything we do in life carries a risk! women still die in childbirth!

A new life is created by deep emotions between the two people creating that life, of course there are exceptions, it could simply be a quick bit of "gratuitous sex" or far more seriously the result of violation, no-one knows the reason that a person may have for making that decision to end that life which has just begun to form, in the case of rape, yes, I can fully understand why the woman may not wish it to go any further, if it was just a "quicky" in a moment of extreme passion, I can understand that too, we are human, we are sexual beings, most of us long for sexual love, if you don,t receive it then it,s pretty obvious that there are moments when one takes it from wherever it is offered, no-one should be judged for that!!!

If it is a product of love and deep affection then the decision is even more difficult to take, the reasons for deciding to abort then becomes far more complex and usually is a decision taken between two people, we should not forget the men involved, its very, very easy for those who have never been confronted with the options to judge, but when people decide to deny life to a miniscule being for whom life has only just begun, it is because they have agonised and cried till their hearts may break because there is no other way, for those who have to take such a decision when the life has already formed, it must be doubly agonising and totally heartbreaking, such people need love and comfort not condemnation and judgment.

A message to all fellow Christians!!! God tells us "Judge not lest you be judged" after all you never know when you may have to take such a decision!!!

Jane

First of all, Standing ovation to Az...

http://pregnantpause.org/numbers/morbid.htm A site which seems to have a decidedly anti-abortion (termination) slant posts the following.

In 1970 the first single year of reported deaths they report 36 mothers died of legal abortion and 109 in illegal abortion, no total number of abortions conducted. In 1981 the final year of single year statistics of over 1.3 million terminations only seven women died as a result.

CDC lists US Maternal death rate as being 7-8/100,000 births/year between the years of 1982-1996 that number is as high as 1,700/100,000 in third world countries.

http://www.onlineathens.com/1998/090498/0904.a3birth.html

To make that comparative in 1981 7 of 1.3 million women who terminated their pregnancey in the US died. For 1.3 Million US mothers who did not 91-104 Women died. Making termination 13-15 times safer than carrying to term in the United States. For the third world the number would be 22,100 dead women for 1.3 million pregancies.

As I had said there was no number given for the total abortions done in 1970 however I strongly doubt that it was as high as the 1981 number making the 147 vs 7 total deaths more staggering if it could be viewed as a percentage.

Of course in 2001 422 people died from inhalation of gastric contents leaving you with an 8,751:1 chance of dying from drowning in your own vomit during your lifetime...

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

I understand that I am dealing with 23 year old data from an iffy source. I gave it about 1/2 hour worth of research and it was the best I could come up with. I will not devotee time then that. However I do feel that it goes to take the wind out of mother's safety as an abortion argument.

So that pretty much brings us back to the moral argument. And I am sorry but I cannot reconcile myself with the churches argument. As I had said before the Catholic church views condoms as being as reprehensible as abortion. The old testiment tells us that for a man to spill his sead on the ground is a sin punishable by death. Many of us here have had personal experience with abortion either through having one or loving someone who did. For any of us and for most people who do have one it was not an easy choice. It was not one entered into lightly. It was one that was debated and contemplated, run through a million times in an earnest attempt to find the best of all possible solutions and then and only then decided upon as a course of action. And it was an event that changed each and every one of our lives and was/is not something to be recalled fondly or even casualy. I have heard the anecdotal tales of women who use abortion as a method of birth control and give it not a second thought, I have never met one. Perhaps they really are out there, but want kind of kids do you think these women would raise anyway?

On the Python thing. I have found that either you get it or you don't. But let's not forget that our beloved Douglas Adams write for 'em at one point. I personaly think they were masters of pointing out just how ridiculous each and every one of us really are and that goes from the Queen (and even notables as King Arthur and Jesus) to the lowest of us. Some people are simply not able to handle that. Personaly I think that if you can't find something to laugh about at just about every single moment in your life. Especially the worst of them then you really are in trouble. In fact I would like to refer the remainder of this discussion to the Song "Every Sperm is Sacred" form Monty Python's The Meaning of Life...

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Definitely it's killing. The foetus is *not* part of the woman's body like the endometrium. That's why terminiation is not something to be done lightly - but only under the most serious circumstances, where absolutely unavoidable.
BTW - I am well familiar with the 'only potentially a human life argument'. You know where that leads? To people like Peter Singer (Australian 'ethicist') who says that a farm animal has a superior right to life than a child with an intellectual handicap. That to me, is outrageous!