h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

that the woman he slept with actually did give consent? A signed form?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4780992.stm

"Men should make certain that a woman has consented to sex to avoid being accused of rape, a new campaign launched by the Home Office is to warn."

"It comes amid low conviction rates for rape cases in England and Wales.

A law change has been mooted allowing juries to decide whether a woman was too drunk to give consent."

We have spoken about this before but now that it becoming ever more dodgy to even consider sleeping with someone I really would like to know how this is going to work as it is still going to be her word against his as well as his against his and hers against hers in this enlightened age!

e.g. from the article

"One woman told File on 4 she was raped by a man she knew after sharing a taxi back to her flat after a party.

She said the man invited himself in, she remembers sitting down on the sofa, having had a lot to drink, and the next thing she knew he was raping her.

The case went to trial but the man was acquitted on the orders of the judge, who said her evidence was "unreliable" because she could not recall details of the alleged attack.

She said: "I wanted to absolutely tell the truth so if there was anything I was in any doubt about I would say, 'Well, I'm not sure,' or, 'I can't remember'."




So, a hypothetical situation based on the above, she could have given consent BUT she can't remember. The man, not realising that she is now in a 'memory-blank' situation, believes there is consent for some rumpy-pumpy. They rump and pump she comes out of her memory blank and assumes that she is being raped. The man assumes it was consensual. She cries rape he cries consented sex - she admits to blanking out. Who is to be believed?

The article says there is a low conviction rate on rapes. Presumably the rates will go up. But how many are going to false claims?



I think it should become law that all sexual encounters should be video'd to prove it was consensual...it's the only way.

OK I could not resist that one. BUT please, a some serious suggestions would be welcome.

I vaguely remember reading once that someone had invented a 'consent condom', with the message 'I consent to sleep with you' and space for a thumbprint. (It sounds hoax-like, but you never know... given the unworkability of using a disposable item for that, it might just be daft enough to be true.)

Wow. I'm of the opinion that when a person drinks themself out of mind, they're still responsible for their actions, or at least can't blame them on someone else. Not that it doesn't happen that a drunk woman is sometimes raped or taken advantage of, but what a serious charge to make when you don't even remember what you did or didn't do!

Serious solution, and one I'd use if I were a man in the habit of picking women up in bars, hell, even if I were in the habit of casual sex. I'd carry a small notebook with me, have the woman handwrite something along the lines of "I want (name)'s body NOW, and am asking, in writing, for him to have sex with me as soon as we can get our pants off. I might be drunk, sloppy, and lacking in judgement but I'm not incoherent."

Then have the woman sign, date/time it.

If she can't do that much, then maybe you're better off letting the opportunity go.

I have heard it said that in colleges in the US, guys have taken to filming it exactly to avoid any later accusations.

That's their excuse

And they do what with it afterwards? Contact an agent?

Consent forms with space for thumbprints? If they're so drunk they can't hold a pen, that doesn't say much for the bloke, does it?
(or maybe thumbprint as in definite identity)

Casual sex is one of the causes of a great number of ills in our society today, and young 'uns should be taught to wait. Sounding like a hypocrite now, I know...*ducks*

'I have heard it said that in colleges in the US...'

Apparently there are colleges in the U.S. where threatening to break up a relationship on grounds of sexual dissatisfaction is treated as coercion under campus anti-rape policy; there was a paper on this in a recent issue of the journal 'Ethics'. So maybe chaps would be a touch paranoid.

This is utterly ridiculous! "I was too drunk" is not a valid excuse for beating someone up, or vandalising property so why should it be allowed as a reason for not giving consent to sex?

I heard an interview on the radio yesterday with the woman in that case. She said that she was sure she did not consent to sex with the man, but because she didn't want to lie at any point, if she wasn't able to answer a question with 100% certainty then she said she didn't know. She also said that she was treated pretty badly in the whole thing - she was put up on the stand first and made to defend herself - the defence made her out to be something she felt she wasn't by implying that she was desperate to get into the social circle that the man was a part of. She had to keep defending herself and at the end of the day the judge threw the case out of court - the man never had to face any kind of questioning - she felt she had been put on trial and the collapse of the prosecution of the man was all her fault.

I think this case is pretty murky actually, but if what she related about it is true then I agree that she was treated quite badly by the court.

Kelli, I've known people who get so drunk they black out, and I've *seen* them do things that would be totally out of character (not just sloppy, but like another whole person) when they're sober. I've also known them to flatly deny having behaved in those ways, because they'd 'never' do that. My brother went through a long and nasty divorce, finally got sole custody of his son once enough hard evidence had been accumulated that his ex was a dangerous and out-of-control drunk. To this day she believes that her arrests and hospital blood-alcohol levels are a conspiracy on his part to try to steal her son away, even though most of them occurred when he was living in a different state. Point is, when people can't *remember*, they might have done anything. That doesn't make it someone else's fault, and I find it hard to see why someone else should have to stand trial based on a drunks assessment of their own character.

Oh I agree MoG, which is why I think this case is rather murky. Was an interesting interview though, which is all I was saying really.

Every individual has to take responsibility for their own actions and the consequences that result. Being drunk is not an excuse. You are forbidden to drive a car when drunk and it is not a reasonable excuse to say that you were too drunk to make an informed decision as to whether to drive or not.

The same set of rules should apply in this case. I'm sorry, but if you let yourself get to such a state that you are unable to react rationally, let alone remember, then the only person to blame is yourself.

Annie, I actually agree with you - it worries me how much drunken casual sex has become part of the standard evening out .

Being drunk impairs our ability to react and to make sensible decisions; how many of us have woken up the morning after the night before and thought, "oh, I didn't do that, did I?" about all kinds of different things.

6 years ago, I went on a night out with a number of colleagues (mostly male) to celebrate my last day at this workplace. We stayed in a hotel close to work so that we didn't have to drive far the next morning, and we all got extremely drunk. To cut a long story short, I had an experience similar to the woman in the court case, but with a couple of exceptions:

1) When I regained awareness (I was so drunk, I don't know if I was passed out or not) , the man was trying to have sex with me but hadn't got that far.
2) I immediately asked him to stop, and although he did try and persuade me to carry on, he did in fact stop and leave my room when I asked.
3) I never reported this to the Police or anyone else. Given that I wasn't sure of giving consent, and he did stop when I asked, I didn't think there was much point.

Since then, I've never drunk so much that I've lost control in that way. I decided the best way to stop it happening again was to take responsibility for the fact I was drunk off my face; had I not been so drunk, it wouldn't have happened.

The easy thing with drink-driving is that the law is black-and-white; you know that if you're caught by the Police with a certain amount of blood alcohol whilst driving your car, you're guilty of it. The problem with drunkenness and rape/sexual assault, and in fact the whole area of sex, is what constitutes definite consent and what doesn't. The lines are by no means clear-cut even without factoring alcohol into it.

It is even more worrying re: 'date rape' when one has been in the situation where while discussing the previous nights 'activities' your girlfriend says 'I do not remember doing that(giggle)' when you you pretty sure she was complis mentis but tiddly.

If it is sometimes difficult to know whether a partner is having a bit of a blank moment it is going to be even more difficult when it is someone you do not know.

*Aside*

A cast iron froof is easily made. You need to design the perameters of the mold and have them programmed into a CNC milling machine or lathe, or both if necessary.

Then, once you've gotten your piece of bulk cast iron, you'll need an indexable cutter (plunge cutting end mill, for example) to work it into the basic shape.

Once you have your mold, make sure you get a TiN coated duburring blade to remove any rough edges, or a finishing end mill will do in a pinch if it doesn't need to be exact.

Voila! you have your cast iron proof!

*End Aside*

On a serious note, I think consent laws are designed to allow for severe impairment of resources to protect the woman in a dating situation. On the surface, there are lots of potential difficulties (how can you not consent to sex while drunk, but be liable for anything else?), and yet, it seems like something of a necessity to me.

That's why I think there needs to be trust and love in a relationship long before making love... partners who trust each other don't have issues like this very often.

So basicaly the defendant has to prove innocence, as oppossed to the court proving guilt?

Is there any other emotive charges that have low conviction rates and concerted pressure groups that will be allowed to overturn fundemental pillars of law. Next thing you know democracies will be holding people in permanent detention without trial or access to consul and....

After a few glasses of wine, I read this thread as:

So HOW does a man get castration proof...

Ironic really, considering the subject. I suppose it just goes to show how much your judgement can be impaired by a few swigs of your favourite tipple.

I knew a solicitor who carried around a small tape recorder(it would be MP3 these days) and recorded the person agreeing through his pocket or where ever he kept the recorder..(I never asked..might be too much information ) This was because he had seen to many rape cases he said and wanted to be sure he couldn't be accused
This was in the early 90's. He went out with a friend of mine and once when we were all in the pub chatting he produced said tape recorder. there was a mixed reaction at the time but you could see where he was coming from.

Yeah, I can understand why he did it . Not entirely sure I think it was the right approach, but I can appreciate why he did that.

When you have sex with someone, it's pretty much the most intimate thing you can do with another person; you're making yourself vulnerable, really.

I have to agree with what eagle2 said: <>

Hmm, men forget what they do too...

An old boyfriend of mine passed out through drinking red wine, sicked up all over the bed, and so we dragged the cushions onto the floor. He woke up and couldn't remember being sick, or anything up to that point. I never pointed out to him what was going on at the point he passed out, but he was entirely consensual up to that point, he just didn't remember it.

Another boyfriend asked to move in with me under the influence of red wine. I thought about it a lot over the next day or so, decided the time wasn't right and spent ages talking to him about it, for him to say he didn't want to move in with me - he thought *I* was asking *him*! He'd completely forgotten he'd asked! Bloody men...