h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Moral question.

This is a comment made by someone who obviously hasn't experienced the real world yet. God bless her, I hope she never does, but I also hope she never becomes a JP/serves on a jury

"One final and important comment on sexism. Don't forget men. I noticed the comments made in an earlier post about domestic violence. Men are subject to domestic violence too but it is very rarely taken seriously, in fact men are ridiculed over it. For this reason it is very rarely reported. Male victims are also more likely to have suffered viscious attacks involving weapons than women who are more likely to be attacked by someone unarmed. This is just one example of discrimination against men."

Have any of you women ever tried to defend yourselves against a man who doesn't care how much he hurts you (so doesn't pull any punches)?
Have any of you men tried to restrain a woman?

So, how can you ever call a man who is beating a woman 'unarmed', when he has fists and feet, and an arm to put round your neck from behind?

Domestic violence perpetratedby men,towards women, is very rarely reported. There isn't any point you see. No-one will help her and he will just hurt her more for having tried to betray him.

Even the police won't help an abused woman. They tell her to go home because they can't do anything unless the man actually breaks one of her bones.
And women tell her she shouldn't disagree with anything her husband says - even if he claims black is white.

A 21 year old girl from a home probably much like yours ended up in a sink estate, miles from anyone or anyplace she knew. (Her husband had left her, with 2 toddlers, one prem baby and another on the way and he had always refused let her put their names on the council waiting list because living in a council house would be beneath him, so she "didn't have enough points" and they put her on a problem estate.)She was burgled three times in the space of two weeks (they stole a vacuum cleaner, a £10 camera, the children's birth certs and a clock-radio someone had lent her )
On the third occasion she was at home, and she had barricaded the windows, so her front door was kicked down. She tried to defend herself with a kitchen knife but he easily took it from her (naturally) and threatened her with it. She ran but he chased her through the streets and dragged her back, screaming for help all the way. The neighbours knew it wasn't a 'domestic' crime but she was an alien and he was a local lad so they just turned up the volume of their TVs. She was badly beaten, and raped, in her own bed, (because she was a 'stuck up bitch' that read books and didn't have a television) and the police advised her not to prosecute because, in the unlikely event that he was put away at all it would only be for six months or so and they wouldn't be able to protect her when he got out

She turned the flat into Fort Knox and spent the nights fully dressed, huddled under the dining table. For two years she didn't dare sleep for more than 2 hours per night.

Eventually she began to recover and then another blow fell (won't bore you with the details).

Well, she was 'rescued' by a knight in shining armour, who knew things he shouldn't have and worked on her unceasingly till she finally agreed to marry him and on the night of their marriage her protector turned into her tormentor.

He completely destroyed her confidence, isolated her, mocked and derided and beat her every day for 15 months, terrorised her children, wouldn't allow her to read, watch documentaries, or even talk to the milkman about the weather.

In the end he kicked her round the room (in the stomach) and then refused to take her to the hospital, but went out drinking while she miscarried, and when she got out of hospital he accused her of deliberately getting rid of the baby and beat her again.
So while he lay unconscious on the sofa (did I mention the way he used to force her small daughter to lie with him?) she picked up his gun, loaded and cocked it, and... couldn't go through with it.

Should she have pulled the trigger?
If she had would you call that "a vicious attack involving weapons, on an unarmed man"?
Would you have locked her up for it?
Which one would you have called the victim?

A similar case here in Nova Scotia, documented in a book and film both titled 'Life With Billy', saw a woman acquitted of first degree murder for using a shotgun on her criminally insane and abusive husband while he slumbered drunkedly at the wheel of his truck.
Seven years later, she herself was found in her car, dead of a gunshot wound to the head, apparently self-inflicted according to police who nonetheless kept the case open for some time so people could speculate...
Did a guilty conscious drive her to suicide?
Did a 'defender of men's rights' wreak justice upon her?

We'll never know. But her story and the one you tell above, have to be told and told again until laws and attitudes change. Too many people just turn away and refuse to believe such things can happen until it happens close enough to home to be undeniable. Then it's too late.
In most countries 60 to 70 percent of all 'homicides' occur in the home, committed by another family member. Statistically one is safer walking the streets of the worst part of town than at home with your own family.
No I would never tell someone else how to live but I would step in and interfere if I heard a cry for help.
peace
~jwf~

autumn... maybee im missing the point entirely, you have my deepest applogies if there is a misunderstanding here...

but i thought the original comment was made in regards to the rare rare case of reversed spousal abuse? (this would be where a wife, usually larger and stronger, would actually beat a husband who was of more slight stature... believe it or not this actually happens...

as far as pulling the trigger goes, I cant say for sure how i would react were it me, but i can say that i probably would have killed either of them. call it the irish temper. and if it were a sister/daughter/friend? again, its not happened to any of the aforementioned, but i can bet you that i would be angered to the point of irresponsible violence tword anyone who beat up a woman, especially to that extent. i also recognize however, that vigilante justice probably isnt the best way to deal with the problem.

Billy Sunday is a good example of what i would be tempted to do... he found out that a woman in his congregation was being beat up by her husband, he went to her home, pretty much uninvited and proceeded to pound her husband. dont know how the story worked out, or even if that was the best policy, but i tend to think along those lines.

again, my aplogies for any misunderstandings.

Hi Autumn,

What a horrible story. But here are my answers to your questions.

1) Should she have pulled the trigger? Yes. She should have killed that S.O.B. so that his defective genes and behavior could not be passed on to the next generation.

2) If she had would you call that "a vicious attack involving weapons, on an unarmed man"? Yes, because that's what it is. The real question is weather or not it's a justified killing and I believe it is.

3) Would you have locked her up for it? No.

4) Which one would you have called the victim? They are all victims, the wife with the physical and emotional abuse, the husband for thinking that his behavior is acceptable, and the children who see it and learn how to behave in that type of environment.

Most women in prison, who are there for murder, are there because they killed thier abusive husband.

Mostly

Thank you jwf
You're a good person. (Not that anyone round here could possibly be in any doubt about that)

Now I'm going to spend the rest of this day (which I have to waste in town) speculating about those two moderated replies.

Drat! Don't you just hate not knowing things?

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. People like us think things like that only happen to the "ignorant masses".
We grow up in our nice comfortable homes, schools, universities, with our nice, intelligent, reasonable families and friends and we go around spouting politically correct, bleeding-heart rubbish and thinking we can help the poor ickle underpwivileged cwiminals.
BEFORE ANYONE ATTACKS ME - I'M TALKING ABOUT THE WAY I USED TO BE, OK?

It takes one mistake kids, ONE five-minute mistake (Well, OK, let's not boast - 2 minutes ), to put you or me right down there at the bottom and when anything bad happens to you the police, social workers, JPs etc will say "Oh but they can't help it you know. They didn't have the privileges you've had. They can't be blamed. You should feel sorry for them"

The line between having a home, job, safety, physical wellbeing, peace and security and having nothing, being on the street, or worse, being damaged and disabled, being brutalized and with no way out; that line is thinner than a spider's thread, for any of us.

Counting my blessings daily, and giving money to beggers (and explaining why to the smug and assured).

a girl called Ben
(whose name means 'blessed' and who is grateful every day).

And the answer to the question - should she have pulled the trigger?

Well, they make movies about soldiers escaping from POW camps, and they are heros, aren't they?

***B

You start the story from saying, from a home like yours, I am luck enough that I could go back to my parents home if anything ever went wrong and failing that one of my 3 sets of Aunts & Uncles.

Yes I do count my blessings, though I'm afraid I don't give much to beggars, not since I saw one get up, go into the public toilets, change, come out in a suit and get the keys to a car out of his pocket, at which point I started to follow him and watched him get into a car (not a new one I hasten to add) and drive off.

I will not give money to drunks or smokers, I will buy them a cup of tea, but I refuse to fund their habits.

I will buy the big issue without hesitation.

I suppose for me it is difficult as I cannot imagine having _nowhere_ to go. Even now at 19 I have 7+ family homes and various friends who I know would take me in.

I am however the B**ch from hell and wouldn't hesitate walking out on a man who hit me, I have immense will power which I am very proud of it (I even give up chocolate for Lent ), I will never stay with a man who hits me, or trys to isolate me. I am an insatiable flirt and my friends mean the world to me.

The only advice I have for people is that if a man is trying to come between you and your family/friends he doesn't love you anyway near as much as he says he does. Don't let it happen, Please.

Should she pull the trigger, no, there is no excuse for murder. Should she walk out ..yes, go to the police station with 3 screaming children and sit there until they sort things out for you (sorry to any policemen reading this) if they can't help you they should know someone who can, but refuse to go back.

Mel *Who said men are the stronger sex, have you ever seen a bachelor pad, boy they can't look after themselves if they tried! *

The problem is if you are in a relationship where the other person deliberately and successfully plays mind-games. This only happened to me once. When I was not with him I knew I should get out of the relationship. When he was with me I wanted to stay in the relationship. (It is called empathy and sensitivity when it is a good thing).

Luckily for me this was when I was at college, and we had an enforced break for vacation, and this was long enough for me to clear my head, end the relationship, and fall in love with the man who became my husband. (Cue ).

No-one I love has ever hit me. What do you do when you have no economic options, no local friends and no local family, and you love the man who hits you?

a girl called Ben
*still giving money to beggars, because not all of them are con-artists, and there but for the grace of god go I*

Personally, I think she would have a pretty good case for self-defence against sustained and prolonged physical attacks.

If she were a hostage or a prisoner of war, no-one would criticise her for making bid for freedom while the guards were sleeping.

***B

Bid for freedom, I like that idea, but still don't agree with the whole killing and revenge thing!

Mel

Was it about revenge or escape?

Or maybe both.

You are right about the revenge, thing, Mel.

***B

Moral answer: No - no human has the right to deny any other human the right to life.

But what about her right not to be attacked, abused, raped, and beaten? If there is no other way for her to stop those things?

(I don't disagree with you, Spearcarrier, I am just asking the question).

***B

Lifes too short!

"love your enemy it will drive him nuts!"

Mel

The question about how to stop the abuse is a practical one, and there are probably a whole number of answers. If the question had been "Morality aside, should she have pulled the trigger?" the answer would probably be yes....but IMHO it is fundamentally imoral to kill anyone at all so therefore there is no other possible answer.

Morally you are right, DJ.

The legalistic question is - is it acceptable to plead self-defence against sustained and continuous and possibly murderous abuse if the attacker is not actually attacking at the time.

If all else fails, do you have the right to defend yourself?

This is where we are faced with the difference between testostoerone fuelled 15 stone blokes, (210 lb, 95 kilo) and terrified and abused women half their weight.

(Yes I know women physically abuse men - I am hypothesising one particular incident here).

Me - I live in the grey area between morality and reality.

a realist called Ben

Should she have killed him?....

Please skip this if you wanted a moral or legal answer.

Not right away, first she should have inflicted as much pain as possible on him. I will self moderate myself on what I think she should do to him, cause it could get really grafic and I don't want to give anyone nightmares.
I feel that any 'in dirtbag that would lay a hand on a woman diserves whatever punishment that woman can think of, and if they can't think of anything then they can ask for pointers. Guys like that make me ill.

Then as far as the legal aspect goes, she should plead temperary insanity due to the days, weeks, months, years of abuse.

There are two problems with her pulling the trigger. First is the legal mess she will be in with the possibility of her spending a lot of time behind bars. Second is that she will have to live with the fact that she killed someone. But she will live... and not be killed when her scum bag husband finally goes to far in his abuse and kills her.

Mostly

Surely some pain is worse than physical, if you can hurt his pride it will last longer than physically beating him.

If you walk out and then when mutual friends see you and ask why you say he was a wife beater, then his bruised ego of losing face in front of friends will last a while, but one has to ask if he is mad enough to beat the woman he claims to love does he care what his friends think.

Mel