h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: Grammar: whether or if? - A37670367
Author: KZ - the abbreviation formerly known as WG - U8183342

The effectiveness of the English language depends on how well we use it. It is also very interesting, I think, to analyse how grammar works. I feel this topic is something many people may never have considered. I know I hadn't until I read about it in a grammar book (I used to teach English, and students would ask all sorts of baffling questions that never usually cross the minds of native speakers).

Nice one. I sometimes feel as if I'm the only one still using 'whether' , and I keep catching myself using if instead more and more often - partly because it's so much easier to type (i.e. out of laziness) and everybody else does it (which can be somewhat confusing to a foreigner), and not because I wouldn't know whether to use whether or if.
And I just noticed that I wrote 'as if' up there, maybe that could be included somehwere, because you can't say: 'as whether'.

No you can't say 'as whether' but you should have said 'that'.

Perhaps this entry has the scope to be expanded to capture more of the gramatical errors one hears and sees (although it may well spark an arguement around the evolution of language in the process).

For instance the proper use of should, would and could, of in place of with, off in place of from, lend instead of borrow and so on.

Just a thought...

t.

I also found this A696332 . The author would seem to have 'Elvised'

t.

<>

Well, at least you know the difference!
'If' does seem to trip off the tongue so easily. I think we tend to copy what we hear, even unconsciously. With grammar trying to influence trends is a bit like being King Canute with the sea.

And these: A690798 and A589458 both of which came from this researcher ( U153746 ) and have not been submitted to Peer Review. The researcher seems to have started a project but given up ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/brunel/MA153746?show=25&skip=25&type=2 ) and possibly 'Elvised' although last heard from in October 2007.

t.

"I know I hadn't until I read about it in a grammar book"

I hope you won't be upset if I suggest you'd benefit from a closer look at a decent grammar book: the following are both favourites of mine (Michael Swan's book is highly recommended):

A Practical English Grammar - Thomson & Martinet
http://www.oup.com/elt/catalogue/isbn/7800?cc=global

Practical English Usage - Michael Swan
http://www.oup.com/elt/catalogue/isbn/7978?cc=global

Good start and I'm glad that entries on grammar and usage are being submitted.

Some points to consider:

<<"I share your concerns about China but I'm not sure if not watching it will make a difference."
The writer clearly means,>>

The writer does not "clearly" mean anything of the sort and, by pointing out an ambiguity, you are, by nature, showing that the writer lacks clarity. Perhaps the writer intended to mean 'I'm not sure if [by] not watching *I* will make a difference'?

An example of how a word has been used ambiguously requires comparative examples of how the usage is ambiguous. The first example you use <<(1) "Tell me whether you can come." (2) "Tell me if you can come.">> goes some way to achieving this but your take on sentence (2) is incorrect; the instruction is not <>, it is "Tell me if you can come but you don't need to tell me if you can't come." If () the writer intends this meaning then the sentence is correct. I think "saucepans or kangaroos"&c. creates a good tone to the entry but you will have to rework it into an accurate example. Keep examples simple and accurate but keep the tone of the entry if you can.

<> *Never* use references to the spoken word in relation to grammar; spoken grammar is a beautiful beast that lives by its own rules.

The entry should also include the usage (not role!) of "though", in relation to "if" (could it be retitled "The abusage of the word 'if'" or somesuch?)
Consider the sentence "Guide entries about grammar are applaudable, if rare." Does this mean that the entries are applaudable *though* they are rare or applaudable *if* they are rare?

This is a good idea for an entry and I'm glad that such discussions are alive on hootoo.

Van

<>

Not at all upset. In fact I'm familiar with Michael Swan's book, having referred to it frequently in my work.

<>

Actually, you're right.

A lot of tips there Van. Thanks.

It's going to take a while for me to incorporate them all!

<<
<>
The writer does not "clearly" mean anything of the sort
>>

I agree, so I've changed this to "presumably".






<<your take on sentence (2) is incorrect; the instruction is not <>, it is "Tell me if you can come but you don't need to tell me if you can't come.">>

I've thought about this and I'm not so sure that it (my take) is incorrect.

I don't think sentence 2 necessarily means "If you can come then tell me that you can come". We don't know. It just says "tell me". If we knew what preceded this point in the conversation, it would help. Eg. it could have gone like this:

"I'm having a party tomorrow. Can you come?"
"I don't know yet. Anyway, I want to tell you about my new saucepan."
"Sorry, I don't have time to listen about your new saucepan right now. Tell me if you can come."


In other words: Tell me about your new saucepan if you can come to my party tomorrow, because then I'll have time.

The changes make the entry better but I still think you're missing the point:

"but grammatically he's saying something else"

There is no grammatical issue here; the issue is one of usage. Usage of words is subjective and the argument against 'abusage' must be based on the ambiguity or vagueness of the abusage.

<>

Yes, we don't know; the interpretation that I gave of the sentence is correct.

Sorry, KZWG, I feel that I sound discouraging and I don't want to discourage. I should probably reply again when I'm less tired.

Keep up the good work.

I've changed
"but grammatically he's saying something else"
to
"but by using 'if' instead of 'whether' his meaning is ambiguous."

<>

Yes, it is.
But so is mine.

But where is the ambiguity in the sentence? You need to give an example of how the sentence can be misconstrued (ie, why it is ambiguous) rather than commenting on its ambiguity.

cf my example of if/though.

It isn't, unless you 'pad out' the conversation as you previously suggested. The sentence by itself has two meanings; the meaning that we assume the writer means or the meaning I gave.

<>

The meaning you gave was "Tell me if you can come but you don't need to tell me if you can't come."

Tell me what?

Fair play

Quick rephrase: "If you can come then tell me so but, if you can't come, then you don't need to tell me so."

You're saying that the speaker, by saying "Tell me if you can come" he means, "If you can come then tell me that you can come".


We have no way of knowing that that is what he wants to be told about, and there's no reason to assume that either. That's why I said "If you can come tell me something", because the 'something' could be about anything at all for all we know.