h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

JK: <<...maybe we should try to concentrate on positive actual ways we all think can bring about a better world with no war.>>

Agreed.

JK: <>

I'm not sure where I denied truth, but the argument associated with the meaning and nature of truth is a long and convoluted one. You could build a small city using only one copy of every philosophical tome on Truth, and a little cement! Let's skip it!

I think fascists are wrong. You think fascists are wrong. Fascists think they are right. If you and I cannot tolerate the fascist view (that fascism is right), then the likelihood of war between us and them seems high to me. Don't you agree? [This *is* a discussion about how war can be *avoided*, isn't it? ]

JK: <>

And do you think the capitalist system (or any other) is a meaningful concept, except where it refers to one or more practicing capitalists? We are discussing matters pertaining to the Real World, not abstract political theory, aren't we? The faults inherent in theoretical capitalism are only reified - and therefore rendered meaningful - when they occur in the Real World, yes?

JK: <>

And your problem with that is...?

JK: <<...should we then abandon all education because who knows what's true?>>

No, of course not. But what if, once educated, people fail to see the truth of what you've taught them...?

JK: <>

And if it doesn't...?
We *are* talking 'bloodless' revolution here, aren't we?
You seem to be using the term 'awareness' to mean: 'becoming aware of the rightness of the Truth that *I* hold'.]

I honestly feel that your attitudes are such that you (and those who agree with you) would (after much discussion, etc.) go to war with any group of people unable to accept Your Values as being correct. Am I wrong?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

"...we are in danger of getting too petty maybe we should
try to concentrate on positive actual ways we all think we can
bring about a better world with no war..."

An important point. I'm going to take this as an invitation to ignore the details of past conversation and try to ask again: what can we do today to reduce or end war?

We can keep arguing details of what our choices for utopian government systems would be, and it doesn't amount to anything more than an argument of whether Tarzan could outwrestle Superman. We can join together temporarily as anarchists, commies, capitalists or aristocrats who are all disgusted with this war, to tell our selected leaders that they should stop making war.

The obvious answers are protest or petitions, old reliable, non-violent but sometimes worthless methods for working within the system to express ourselves. I'm not sure that either of these will change anything today, especially in the US where supposedly 85% or more approve of the way Bush has handled the war. What other suggestions do any of you have that people on h2g2 could act on today or tomorrow? (Try not to suggest any obviously violent means of protest if you want to be taken seriously as working for "peace.")

<>

<>

Good points. I have been circling around the concept that, in the medium- to long-term, tolerance is the only way to end war. We (societies/cultures) each choose our own system of government. As long as we can peacefully co-exist, the exact nature of our governments is immaterial. Utopian government systems? As you say, a pointless debate.

In the short-term, the road to peace is as you describe, Deidzoeb, or so it seems to me. I have no suggestions to add to the 'standard list' you quoted, I'm afraid. Contacting our elected representatives might help. That's what they're supposed to be for - to govern on our behalf, implementing our wishes. Now I wonder what my MP's email is...

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

world disarmament campaign? then a mad max style 'Thunderdrome' system for conflict resolution, with Tina Turner compering a fight to the death between world leaders on live television, where 2 men enter, one man leaves and the rest of us don't get bombed or lied to. With great costumes.

oh I dunno. I really just don't think there will be the kind of revolution JKs on about, and don't see that as such a bad thing really.

I do think that a change in the system is
the only way to hault wars forever as it is the only
thing that can take away the insentive for them.
However I dont think that there is nothing we
can do now, it may seem hopeless to protest and
to leflet and to petition but it is not we can
and do make a difference.
The two huge London demos may not have stoped this
current war but they were far from pointless.
Isues are raised and people are radicalised the
message is spread, you just have to look at the
change is British public opinion though out the
war surport has almost continualsy droped.
In parliment there was a huge surpression of anti
war feeling by the patriotic lobby but still it
could be seen. The most notable action was that of
Paul Marsden who defected from the Labour Party
(though unfortunatly to the only slightly better
Lib dems) because of his treatment by party whips
telling him to keep off the topic of the war.
The 'representivite' democratic system that we have
in place may seem lame but it can some times make
a differeence and is oftern a good properganda tool
for getting ones message to the masses.
You can go to this site if you whant to fax (for free)
your (UK) MP.
[URL Removed by Moderator]
if the link is gone (moderated) then you can find it on
my page.

JK thinks <>

I don't understand this at all. What is it, in which political system, in which country, that you think is providing an incentive for war?

Here in the UK (your country too?), we have President Blair caring for our every need. While the status quo could be improved in many ways, it's a reasonable approximation to a decent government. At the least, I can't see how what we have today encourages war, but I'm open to enlightenment...

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

I think it would be nice if this tread
could be devoted to ways people think
we can 'fight' sorry I mean help stop or
what ever, the wars that are going on
but if your interested in what I have to
say then I will right a post on how I think
War is conected to imperilism globalisation
and the capitilist ideiology and post it
in an agasent thread.
Please come and creatise me as it is only
through discution that we fine tune or ideas.

http://www.peaceoneday.org/

A campaign for a one day world ceasefire.

Anyone wanna be sowing some white poppies with me?

Peanut xx

[email protected]

Anyone going to London on Saturday? Love Peanut xx

K, well if any of you researchers are in Hyde park for the no war protest today, I've got peace and h2g2 velcroed on my T-shirt and looks like it will be warm enough to wear one.

Love Peanut xx

Reporting in

Hello all, I just came by, and got moved by the idea.
My life experience is quite short (I'm 15), but is enough for me to realise that war is the sickest way to make money nowadays.
After seeing some statistics and making some calculations, I was stunned to find out that every time my heart beats, more 15 000 pounds are spent on weapons throughout the world.
Anyway, after considering these facts, I am declaring a war on war.
May I put this page in my affiliations list?


Petkan

Hi everyone


Are you still collecting researcher's emails? If so....
[email protected]

Om shanti

War Isn't Over http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/brunel/F76974?thread=291273&post=3685649#p3685649 Abolish War.

You can count me in. I turned fifteen the day war began in Iraq and I think then I realised just how terrifyingly often new wars start, even just thinking about the ones we hear about. Then there are places like the Congo where such dreadful things have been happening and nobody hears about them for ages. If I'm horrified at this, and none of it really affects me, I can't imagine what it must be like for people suffering daily at the hands of fellow humans. Anyway if you're still collecting e-mails - [email protected].

Can I recommend people for peace in my space?

Clare

you can also why not summit peace as edited entry history reasons unfortunatly somewhere someone will be at war with me it was suez cyprus aden "belieze" events over past 35 years ect

Now 9/11 is used to rationalize everything from domestic plunder to imperialistic aggression worldwide. Protests are banned under anti terrorism legislation, and the corporate media is still diverted by spin and titties.

http://www.voy.com/65982/70.html is a very good read.

I intend to do some hippie peacenik spam soon perhaps but my emails a tad buggered as usual. I have most of the pfp email addresses stored at a hotmail account. If any great mail organisers want to handle a list of the mails that would be grand - let me know.

I really think that we need to be more vocal protesting this illegal occupation and call for a scheduled withdrawal.

Are there any more protest events that anyone knows of?

In a side issue I have a question for ya'll - Did you see Sept 11th on the TV as it happened? I'm one of the few Londoners who wasn't glued to that screen as the second plane hit and I'm wondering if that makes a difference to how I feel? I'm reminded of an old sci-fi plot (triffids, I think) where a mesmerising event that few did not see caused blindness and insanity.

Its a TV shared experience thing that I didn't experience cos I was at a protest against the arms trade. Weird huh? Was anyone else at the pink and silver march that day in London?

I didn't see the second plane crash (I was at school at the time), but they repeated the footage afterwards over and over for the whole evening. I'm not sure how much difference seeing it live would make, though I'm sure seeing it live *in person* would have made a big difference to how I feel.

I work afternoons, so on 9/11 I was stepping out the front door of my apartment building at around 1 pm EST, without having seen newspaper or tv or heard a radio. On the front door of the building was an announcement about the apartment offices closing due to the "terrorist action." I wondered if someone had called a bomb threat to the apartment office, or if they were exaggerating something that had been done to them.

Driving down the city streets on the way to the highway, I was caught in a traffic jam when I finally heard on the radio about the planes hitting the World Trade Center and Pentagon. The traffic jam was caused by cars lining up to donate blood at the local Red Cross station.