h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi,

It's scaring how long so many reasonable people may be missing the point. I'm
not talking about condolences to the poor souls that passed away, and the
hapless injured, and, most of all, those left behind to miss the loved ones.
All my heart is with them.

But now I'm talking about the cause, the presumed culprit, and the imminent
inadequate response. Who's going to glee?

Muslims may happen to be no more responsible for it than you and me. It's
really amazing how quickly the target was found! Have you thought about this?
That all those CIA, FBI, MI6, Mossad, KBG et al were missing on such a plot
for the past 2-3 years, and then, almost overnight, they found a car, flight
manuals in Arabic language, suspects who took aviation courses in Florida,
their Muslim accomplices all around the world, etc., etc., etc.

It is this abundance of evidence and promptness with which it appeared that
makes me very uneasy. It smells of a specially prefabricated and skillfully
planted wrong lead. But this would be the least of evils.

I may even suppose that some spooks let it happen, most likely not knowing the
scale in advance. Then they got badly abused by their pupils, which would be
very typical of secret services' performance, by the way (all of the
aforementioned agencies are meant here, inclusively, mind you).

And now all of us are going to pay a high price, that way or another. Think who will profit from this, and enjoy being wagged!

Best regards.

Alexander

I think that it is more likely that the western intelligence agencies know many people who are suspected terrorists, but that they cannot act until the terrorists do something illegal. And if you are effectively a spy in a foreign country you are going to keep your head down.

And do not forget - more manpower has been commited to this than to any other investigation in history.

Yes - I think that innocent arab-looking people will be kicked and punched in prison cells around the world. But I also think that the innocent will be released, and I do not think that the evidence against the guilty will be fabricated.

Mind you - I have the phrase Guildford 4 in my mind now. It is not an address...

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a human-being called Ben
http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A61261

Think of the USA as a person.
That person has been hurt; injured by the violent action of another person.
What is the normal reaction of someone who is attacked? Retaliation. And who is the target? The nearest, most obvious one.

I don't think anyone is being wagged. The key to breaking a terrorist organisation is knowing that it exists and is conducting an operation within your borders. Whoever planned the attack on the US did so with consumate skill.

But once the USA knew it was under attack, it knew where to start looking for the attacker. The US has a huge law enforcement community and an equally large intelligence community. When those resources were directed to one task there were rapid results.

I also thought the evidence recovered from the hire-car in Boston seemed almost too perfect. All it lacked was a signed photograph saying 'Good luck killing the infidels. Ever yours, Osama'. But then, criminals are often not the smartest people around, so who knows. My hope is that the US gets a chance to present their evidence, so we *know* who was responsible, rather than having to take it on faith.

They found the car because they knew the name of one of the hi-jackers. The stewardess on that flight phoned the airline and told them the seat number of the hi-jacker. (That woman deserves a post-humous medal).

So - if he had an arabic flying manual - was he going to take it on the plane with him? (I don't know - maybe he should have flushed it down the loo).

I am prepared to suspend my dis-belief on this one for a while.

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a human being called Ben

PS - Jim - could you put up some stats on new reserchers, new conversations, numbers on line, numbers of active researchers, numbers of posts. It would be good to know how busy the site has been.
Thanks,

Hi,

I'm not sure that a person who tries to retaliate at once will always be right: some of us prefer to analyze the situation first. Nevertheless, let's try to reconstruct, on that scarce evidence as we are given, how police found the hired car in Boston.

Suppose you're going to ram WTC in New York this morning. You get up early, take your flight manuals with you and go out to your extremely easily traceable car. You've done two trivial mistakes already.

When arriving to the Boston airport, you feel naturally nervous: it's not an everyday job to die, even if heavens are already waiting for you. So you stupidly mark yourself up by quarreling with a guy for a parking lot. That's your third mistake.

You manage to get on the plane with whatever weapon appears to be undetectable (and which, accidentally, won't sustain the heat either). Once on board, you miss a bag with a video band you obviously couldn't do without, another pile of flight manuals in Arabic, and Osama's photo (correct me if I'm wrong). That's your fourth mistake.

Later, your accomplices speak in broken English and leave their recognizably Arabic accent on a tape. You leave mobile phones alive. You put a red ribbon around your head and let it be seen (by the way, why not green?).

But all this doesn't matter. The guy with whom you quarreled in Boston will anyway point to you once he gets the news. And you're pretty well aware of what will follow.

Now try to convince me that this is all human, and years of harsh preparation didn't route those strange habits of keeping your head intentionally high and putting one's folk under direct fire of the most powerful military might in the world.

Sorry, I don't believe in this story. This operation would have been cancelled upon mistake one unless... it was going to leave this trace.

Best regards.

Alexander

AGCB, it is true there are many suspected terrorist in the US but nothing can be done unless they have the evidence. Alexander, it may seem very far fetched but how do you get onto a plane without a ticket? you have to buy one, if you use cash you are already under scrutiny so you steal a credit card and use a name, the card can be placed to the last place used and who may be responsible. Suspected terrorists in this country have pictures on file, you watch the camera footage from the terminals and see if any faces pop up. Then they go to there last known addresses. one thing leads to another. it may not all be right but if you follow the leads theyt will go somewhere hopefully in the right direction. I doubt all this information has been had up.

I've heard that the terrorists laid a fairly subtle false trail in one instance, leading to a couple of Saudi immigrants (one of whom had been dead for some time).

But on the whole, I'm not convinced. We're talking about men in - I suspect - a highly agitated state. It's understandable they'd make a few mistakes. Also bear in mind that once they were in the air covering their tracks was the last thing on their mind - it's not as if they were going to be hunted for the crime afterwards, is it?

Hi,

I'm afraid that we start missing the point again. What I'm talking about is not how plausible it is that a group of Arab fanatics rammed the WTC and Pentagon upon a year long preparation period that went unnoticed by the whole huge, law abiding, and well paid intelligence and law enforcement community in the US and abroad.

My main concern is that the trail of events surely leads us to another bloody war like those in Vietnam, Afganistan, Iraq, and Jugoslavia. All of them were made up out of nothing, had absolutely different goals from those offered for public consumption, and cost much more in lives and expenditure than is commonly believed. Read any serious book to find out how it was done (I suggest "The First Casualty" by Phillip Knightley for starter).

And this again happens when a global economic slump makes military spending the last resort of many behemoths of the business and industry. They need a war to start spending taxpayers' money unchecked once again. The spooks also want a good cash boost, which they make all too clear.

The irony of the situation (if one can speak about irony in the face of so grace events) is that Osama bin Laden may indeed have nothing to do with this outrage. He, just as CIA and others, have lost control of the hydra born by their narrow minded self interest. By the way, why the CIA and FBI chiefs are still in place after such a tremendous failure? I don't know: if I were to have such a thick skin, I'd need no bulletproof vest.

Now we're slumping into another war. Everybody but ordinary people have a lot of things to do: speaking, smiling, encouraging, threatening... And ordinary people don't seem to care.

Even you.

Best regards.

Alexander

That's a very scary idea, Alexander.

I'm starting to like the way you think!

Yes, I would not be surprised to find out that the evidence collected thus far that points to Bin Laden is perhaps a little...easy to come by? Yes, I am also aware that the USA could really do with a kick to it's economy. And yes, I know that diverting the attention of a populace with a war, which has always proven useful in the economy boosting stakes, is a time honoured method.

But.

We aren't talking about another war. We aren't talking about another Vietnam. We aren't even talking about another Gulf war, although that is what the USA is preparing for.

I think we're more likely to see another Northern Ireland. A protracted and occasionally very bloody conflict fought on the streets and in the hearts and minds of a civilian population. The Americans are geared to fight a large, open, technologically sophisticated war and they're not going to get one.

My take on the events of the next couple of months?
America will identify a suspect and there will be a surgical strike to punish the country responsible for harbouring that suspect.
There will be a small backlash against the USA, who will weather it. Everything will go quiet.
There will be a second outrage against the USA. And after that, God only knows what will happen.

The USA is not prepared to fight this kind of conflict and they are about to go off half cocked.

It's a lot easier to investigate a crime that has already happened than it is to prevent one. I was surprised it seemed that it was going so slowly in the first two days. Although, I suppose the Department of Justice was probably holding back.

There are a lot of terrorists and terrorist support organizations in the United States. It's impossible to follow each individual with the amount of funding that is available. The FBI has prevented several major acts of terrorism. I suspect, that there have been many acts that have been prevented because of the sensitivity of the information used.

Once you have a solid lead, everything else falls into place pretty quickly. It's actually a lot of fun. I just finished my first real investigation in some time. In the space of 18 hours, I arrested my first suspect; gained new information; dismissed my initial suspicions against the first guy; obtained a warrant for my actual perp; interrogated him unsuccessfully; and obtained statements from enough witnesses to secure a conviction.

Who knows, the government may want to shine us on, but the investigation is completely credible. Even terrorists aren't supermen. Everyone makes mistakes, especially in an operation of this magnitude. You're not going to stop just because of some minor errors because they won't stop you from completing your mission.

Two Bit Trigger Pumping Moron
My dear McClellan:
If you don't want to use the Army I should like to borrow it for a while. - Abraham Lincoln

I have followed the investigation but not so closely. What I know thus far is that the "connection" to "Nimble" Osama is: one of the killers met another "killer" in Malaysia last year!

Correct me if am wrong here but who is fooling who?

Secondly, and with all due respect to the departed, OBL has always taken responsibility for what he has done. This time he is very vocally categorical that he didnt do it. The Afghans have asked for evidence and they turn over the man. Why not give the evidence and we get OBL?

That question still lingers "Who gains the most from this"? Someone please answer that!

I don't know why we haven't presented enough eveidence to get the Afghans to convice them to turn over bin Laden to us. If he were turned over, we would have to reveal some of it inopen court anyway. I'm doubtful that their offer is all that sincere.

Osama bin Laden has acknowledged his or his loyalists' involvement in the Yemeni and Somalia attacks. He has denied responsibility for the Saudi Arabian and East African bombings.

Although, I do note with some amusement the Albanian connection that has been mentioned in the press.

Two Bit Trigger Pumping Moron
You furnish the pictures and I'll furnish the war. - William Randolph Hearst

Is the prime contention of this thread that someone in the west deliberately planned this simply in order to help the economy?

Yeah, and Joe Kennedy ordered his son's execution.

The Duke of Edinburgh masterminded the death of the Princess of Wales.

The Monty Python collective were all Soviet agents.

The moon landings were faked.

Someone will believe any conspiracy theory, no matter how cracked it is...

One thing that is bothering me is that all the hijackers appear to be known/suspected terrorists, and all checked in under their own names. How was this not picked up? Can the airlines mainframes not run a name-check on passengers as they book in? I realise that you will have innocent people with the same name, but to have at least two known terrorists on the same flight should at least set an alarm ringing somewhere. Surely for the sake of the occassional inconvenience of a false alarm, some form of checking could be done.

And yes, I did think that finding the car with the manuals and the Koran and the 'Greetings from Kabul Terrorist School' postcard was all a bit of a hasty coincidence.

Hi,

> Yeah, and Joe Kennedy ordered his son's execution.
> The Duke of Edinburgh masterminded the death of the Princess of Wales.
> The Monty Python collective were all Soviet agents.
> The moon landings were faked.

I've been expecting such a critical posting and am glad to reply to it, although I'm sincerely sorry that you've got it all wrong. This thread is not about 'odidit, or how angry we are at this outrage, or how terrible it is to live in this world. It is mostly about why this happened and what is going to happen next.

I believe that no sane person would knowingly order such a ritual killing of several thousand people. No sane person would ignore information about this thing coming (the information is always there, what lacks is the creativity, said one clever guy). No sane person would knowingly lend any assisstance to those involved.

However, our fellow humans did all that. They orderd this killing, they let it happen, and they helped it coming. All of them must have had their twisted reasons, but even when those reasons are discovered, we still won't be able to predict what comes next, and will have no chance of finding the cure unless we start looking for the cause and try to answer the main question: why did this happen right now?

For me, everything I've heard so far is way above the true machinery of the events. Have you ever tried to catch a good big fish? Then you'd know that sometimes they prefer to go just below the surface, and all that you get to see is a wave on the otherwise smooth and quiet lake. Likewise, my impression is that we people generally prefer to exclaim at the view of those beautiful waves instead of thinking about catching the fish.

And I'd rather have that one for lunch.

Best regards.

Alexander

P.S. By the way, Princess Diana's spectacular departure was indeed pretty well timed. And all witnesses were immediately taken into custody by the French police who are famous for their skill of letting people disappear if need be. The poor Duke of Edinburgh didn't need to bother: the loyal royalists, quite numerous in the British secret services, would manage it all by themselves, with a little help of their friends.

P.P.S. And please don't tell me that JFK was killed by a lonely assasin. Just don't.

P.P.P.S. The Monthy Python were pretty queer, but mostly harmless.

P.P.P.P.S. Did you see the Moon landing broadcast on that day? I did. They were black and white, striped, blurred, but still way too realistic for the state of the faking art of the time.

Excellent points and well made.

I guess that even if your op is in danger of being compromised if that op is going to end with you dead a certain "oh well...what the hell" mentality will set in. After all, when the plane is in the air there's not much the country can do.

I have a question for Two Bit Trigger Pumping Moron (good name!).
There's an investigation underway. Hopefully, it will lead to an arrest. Will it be possible for the US to conduct an unbiased trial?

I've never been as far as a jury trial. In some ways, I have faith in the system, but in some ways, I don't. For the most part, they do the right thing, but every once in a while, they do something squirrelly, and they'll nullify.

I think we could find a few dozen people who would be willing to evaluate the evidence as to the guilt of the person in court. I could, but prosecution attorneys don't like having cops on juries, we're too critical.

Were I the defendant, I'd probably waive my right to a jury and go with a bench trial just to be on the safe side.