h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

my god, how much hate must go on in this world?

nobody's perfect. americans aren't perfect. we don't claim to be. not all of us agree with the government all the time!

people shouldn't have had to die for this.

What is the root of this problem? Is it the Americans or their awful policies abroad? I think the latter. They openly and brazenly support groups without clear reason and then dump them when their use is past. Who "created" Sadam and Bin Laden anyway?

Lucky Bri says we all agree there is no excuse for these acts of terrorism.
Well ther may be no excuse. But there may be some reasons. It is amusing to see in an Internet community that someone identifying themselves in Britain as being "close to home" and then going on about the IRA.
I am not offering any solutions, but don't agree that the way on from this is to eradicate the perpretrators, since that in the past has only encouraged the next generation of perpretrators.
I would like to suggest a scenario from an interview I saw on TV this morning and add an imaginary answer which may have as much success as any from this nonsense.
An interviewer asked a structural engineer "How should we protect our buildings from this kind of assault in future?"
The structural engineer, bringing all of his technical expertise to bear would say, "Don't p**s off the Third World nations."

I deeply respect the sentiments expressed here. Shocked and stunned as we are at this time, our thoughts and prayers go out to all who passed, irrespective of colour, race, religion, creed, political belief or whatever. I am deeply saddened by the loss and the grief of all relatives of passengers, office workers, emergency service personell, military & civil staff and others.
When the dust inevitably settles and the shock starts to subside, I pray that the powers that be, however incensed by events, will be able to deal with the aftermath in a compassionate, reasoned manner and not allow knee-jerk reactions to take place or for the voice of reason to be drowned by the clamour of those seeking revenge.
Yes, it's very easy for me to sit here and type this: I haven't lost a relative, friend or loved one, but I have seen too much suffering in this world to want to see more. We have a legacy for our children and their children. To promote tit for tat revenge atrocities will do nothing but worsen an already sadly unstable and troubled world.
My sincerest condolences

I love Islam and I don't hate America. It is human beings who have suffered a grotesque attack and I condemn that both as a Muslim and as a human being. If the US wants to retaliate aggressively - so be it - I would still not give up my feelings of humanity towards all people including the people of the Unites States. I feel deep sadness at what has happened in New York & Washington - I have no sympathy for those who have done such a horrendous deed - whatever their cause and whatever their motive.

I cannot (an old hippy comes out of the closet here folks... blinking in the sudden, forgotten, daylight) bring myself to judge anyone because of religion, race, hair colour, musical taste, choice of breakfast cereal or whatever.

It saddens me to see so many people in the world looking to do just this.

Why can we not all exist here without prejudice?

Our differences enrich the world and should not be an excuse to strangle it!

Feel free to label me an "ugly American" because perhaps I am. I do not feel that the attack on the WTC or the Pentagon (which was a mistake) was warranted in any way. I do not think that "we had it coming" for some time or for any time. Simply stated I think that America deserved nothing of the sort. People, even on this conversation, who seem to think we do are advocating murder on a massive scale.
It isn't about an "American attitude" about our lack of multi-lingualism (ability to speak more than one language) or our foreign policy. People are allowed to think about us as Americans as an entire people group what they want to. But no one is allowed to say that "we had it coming" that we deserved it or should have expected it. As insulting as some (or most) of the world finds America or Americans, insulting doesn't warrant murder.
I know about sanctions and missile attacks on Iraq, I know about covert military operations where we've killed terrorists, I know that we bombed Sudan and Afghanistan just over a year ago. And people can think what they want about that, but every one of those incidents is believed to be warranted on our parts. So, call me arrogant and an Ugly American. I am proud of my country, proud to be one of the "colonists"...yes here in the colonies we've changed quite a bit in the last 220 years. We are the MOST productive country in the world. We may rank low on the education scales but that hasn't slowed or paused our productivity in ANY WAY. We still continue to make the most things, the most money, produce the most food, clothing, energy and almost everything else. We still have story after story of what is called "the American dream." Why? We still work the most and the hardest to be where we are and stay there. And that is that. We were attacked possibly on religious terms and ideals but mostly because it is always easiest to envy and hate the best.

With a bit of luck the whole world will unite. With a bit of luck (not!) the whole world will unite against the middle east. That could result in war. Whether the threat came from there or not, the vilifying of the place is not likely to make life any easier for any of us. Nobody wants a war.
As far as the religious thing goes, man invented it. Like I said, love people, hate religion. Although sometimes, hate people, hate religion.

It has been interesting to read all the comments here, some very astute, others less so.
I want to clear something up. When I started this thread, "Love Islam, Hate America?" was not something I made up for the title; it represents an actual sentiment spraypainted on the side of a building and spoken on the lips of more than a few. This thread is about seeking the origins of this sentiment.

To summarize so far:
Islam and Christianity have a deep seated mutual animosity going back to their common beginnings.
Islamic countries in modern times have been mistreated by the west of late.
The US, representing ideals antithetical to those of the leaders of the Islamic revolution, has also imposed economic sanctions on many middle eastern countries and supplied arms which are then used to take Muslim lives.

Anything more?

Dear BoC,
Oh please! I'd like to see what enrichment was brought from the differences of Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, etc., etc. Perhaps they loved their hamsters? You get my drift.
I don't necessarily disagree but next time you come out into the daylight, bring your brain with you.

What do you mean "nobody wants a war?" There are probably close to 150 million people here calling for a war including our President and Congress. Of those 150 million people demanding a war almost all of them think that there's not a snowball's chance in hell that America would be on the losing end...which is probably the likliest reason that Americans can call for a war so readily. We think we can launch attacks with little to no collateral damage and even very little casualties of our soldiers, so it is easy to desire that. We'll see many results with little added effect to our soceity as a whole. That doesn't make it right but that is what it is like.

What do you mean "nobody wants a war?" There are probably close to 150 million people here calling for a war including our President and Congress. Of those 150 million people demanding a war almost all of them think that there's not a snowball's chance in hell that America would be on the losing end...which is probably the likliest reason that Americans can call for a war so readily. We think we can launch attacks with little to no collateral damage and even very little casualties of our soldiers, so it is easy to desire that. We'll see many results with little added effect to our soceity as a whole. That doesn't make it right but that is what it is like.

Another American here. First I want to express to a young muslim poster that not all Americans automatically tie the terrorism of yesterday to Islam. Many of us realize that our Muslim communities are generous, loving, sincere people very worthy of our respect, admiration, and appreciation.

There will always be the ugly and narrow minded who blame all Muslims for the acts of an alleged few, but the majority of us do not hold Muslims in general responsible. It should also be said that there has been no conclusive statement that Muslims are responsible for the terrorism. There are some reports that Arabic was heard to be spoken on flight recorders, and that groups of men with Arabic names were on each flight, but I've heard no one say conclusively that anyone of Arab nationality has been identified as responsible, only suspected.

I, personally, don't like George W. Bush. I didn't vote for him and wouldn't vote for him, he represents none of what I hold dear. In fact, the *majority* of Americans did not vote for him. It was an antiquated glitch in the electoral college and the support of a conservative court that got him the presidency. I place a good deal of responsibility for yesterday squarely on his shoulders because of his isolationist attitude in dealing with the rest of the world. I don't think there was a single country that hasn't been insulted by Bush in the last seven months.

All of that said; yesterday was more than an act of terrorism, it was an act of war. Only one plane was sent to the Pentagon, a military target. Two were sent to the WTC, an entirely civilian target. This act must be answered and those who perpetrated it disabled permanently from ever doing such a thing to anyone again. I hope to god that it won't take a war to get those responsible, but I'll support it if it does.

I'd like to make a small observation to Theanthrope (was il viaggiatore)
As a non religious type living in the West, I can never get away from the feeling that Christianity is a good old fashioned "British" religion and Muslims are "foreign". As you probably know, if you've seen the photographs, Jesus was white English and born and brought up in Westminster, near the cathedral. This, above all else, I believe, contibutes in no small manner to the way we feel in the west towards Muslims and also helps fuel the Protestant/Catholic divide which tears Ireland apart as well.

Dear 184433... sorry to use your number but you left no name.
You appear to have missed my point.
As I stated, this act is terrible and believe me after time in the middle east I am all too aware of their reasons.
My point was how can America justify pursuing all terrorist groups when they openly support Israel, and the IRA (who incidentally are far closer to my home in London than any other major terrorist group I am aware of).
You do not hear of world action being taken against these groups. Is it only intolerable when this affects the people of America.
I am saying terrorism and terrorist acts against innocent people are wrong in ALL cases.
I hope you have a better understanding of my perspective.
BH (UK)

If you believe you speak with a difference between yourself, Hitler, Stalin et al then here is where the difference enlightens the world.

My brain is here with me, by the way, in a jar.

Read between the lines. Only reading the lines is where the problems start. We have to understand each other, which is different to reacting as we are told.

Friend (as you choose to go unnamed)
This country has had an overt act of war commited against it. This has happened before and will most likely happen again. And just because the US military might is considered the winner in any conventional war, does not mean that this country wouldnot do the same if in a position of weakness. This country had it's first test as a nation against the Barbary Pirates, which was state sponsered terrorisim by any modern definition. At that time the US navy was *not* the foremost naval and air force power in the world. When US citizens see a wrong they unite to get rid of it. I suggest you polish up your history books and reconsider some of what you have said in this forum and others.

Marv White.

I entirely agree.
Ethnic, cultural, and religious lines must be drawn between peoples in order to make them hate each other. They must be different, alien. This is universal, and demagogues everywhere have used 'differences' to stir up hatred and promote their twisted agendas, i.e. the Nazis. What we saw yesterday is the result of an 'us vs. them' conflict that goes back fourteen hundred years.

BoC here... don't take the last reply out of context folks.

Les Moderateures got the other guy and blanked him out!

Nice to see the H2G2 people so vigilant.

Nice to be in a community that cares!

Oh, I do know we would as a country respond even in weakness. And that it would be condoned as a whole (for the most part) by the American community if it was to get rid of an evil. My point is that it is simpler while you are not standing at a position of weakness.


Andrew Harris