h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I did too!
the ones who did were only a minority...besides nobody can force anyone to take the citizenship of any country....
besides the Palestinians are asking for the 1967 lands, not the 1948 lands (which ALL of the Palestinians who chose to take Israeli citizenship come from)
the UN again has given the Palestinians the right to form their country. I hope that Israel does not try to force all of them to take up its citizenship! because occupying their land is not the way....
btw, I think you know that when Israel was formed that the people who formed the majority of the population in that land (musilms/christians) were never asked if they wanted Israel in their land, nor was there any Arab or Muslim nation represented in when the UN vote took place, actually there was not even a third world nation represented.........on top of all this the PLO agreed to give up the 1948 lands for peace,,,,
please tell me: what did Israel offer to the Palestinians in return for peace?

Answers from the crowd, please? I can't answer this question and I want peace not war.

x x Fenny (feeling pressured, but still maintaining Zero Intolerance)

I am ashamed to say that I know almost nothing about the past and present pains of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and as such my comments are pretty ignorant. It seems to me that when you have a history of conflict going back what 3000 4000 years then there is going to be wrong on both sides. And two wrongs don't make a right, they make the starting points for an infinity of wrongs.

Seems to me that longstanding conflicts are not resolved, history just moves past them. This may sound completely nuts, and it is difficult to articulate. But in my opinion one of the major things which contributed to the peace process in Northern Ireland was the creation of assemblies in Scotland and Wales. NI was could achieve a degree of self-government without being treated as a special case. And now the loyalists continue thier terrorism and the IRA have started decommissioning their arms. But the main point is that the world around NI changed, and NI changed in response to that.

Something similar happened when the iron curtain came down. OK - communism imploded and disintergrated. I guess that the economic differences between the USSR and its satellites and the US and its satellites became too greate to support the USSR as a super-power. But suddenly there was no evil empire on the far side of Europe any more. (This is not very well argued and may not help me make my point).

So it seems to me that the best hope for the situation between Israelis and Palestinians is for the ground to shift around them, and for their conflict to take on different meaning, or less meaning. It has happened in the recent past, but how this could happen for the Israelis and Palestinians I have no idea.

Thats about it really.

agcB

> "what did Israel offer to the Palestinians in return for peace?"

The answer's in the question: they offered peace.

Ben, if you are British and you know "nothing", then that is real sad, because the British Empire had had a big involvement in the creation of Israel.
btw, the conflict does not date back to 3000~4000 yrs as some want to believe it does. it dates back to the formation of the Zionist movement (which was opposed by many Jews at the time), who wanted to have a country for the people of the Jewish faith. In 1917, Theodore Hertzl, the head of the Zionist movement, got a promise from Sir. Alfred Belfor to form a land for the Jews in the land of Palestine so the immigration to the Palestine by "European" Jews started after that promise. Sir. Belfor, which has a street named after him in Tell Aviv, believed that the Jews were facing problems for Europe, and he did not want any of them in the UK anyways, or at least that they were being prosecuted by Germans, to the point that they will start moving to England (Sir.Belfor in 1905 was the prime Minister of England, when he defended the "Aliens law", which was in essence a protective law from the immigration of European Jews to England. Sir.Belfor, was called "Anti Semitic" by the 7th Zionist conference.......

The British empire, decide to give a lot of land of Palestine to the Zionists to form Israel. The people who were living in the land at that time (Muslim/Christian) (90% of the population at the time)were offered no referendum or any election to see what they wanted!!
Imagine this: you live in land then an outsider who controls you decides that this is not your land anymore, and that he is going to give to some one with out any regard to what you want or feel !! is this some from of "Justice" that we don’t know about or something??
after the vote which took place at the UN, the UN sent its first ever UN mediator (Count. Folke Bernadotte), who was promptly assassinated by Zionist "Terrorist", a unique form of Zionist-dialogue that we are seeing it in action in Israel and the Occupied lands as we speak today)
As a matter of fact Count Folke was the first ever UN envoy to be killed in the cause of peace. I personally, believe that his assassination characterizes the level or "respect" Israel shows for the UN has had ever since
Israel continues to defy all of the UN resolutions calling it to stop its aggression on the Palestinians, to give back the land it occupied in 1967 including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. With all the injustices the Palestinians of the 1948 lands faced, the PLO and almost all of the Arab leaders agreed to accept the right to Israel to exist in the 1948 lands (about 80% of the land of Palestine, though I need to confirm this figure) in exchange for their land.

so you see the "conflict" dates to the beginning of this century, and not thousands of yrs.
The Jewish families of the middle east have always lived in here (in Iraq, Morocco, Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Algeria, Turkey, Iran....etc)
and have contributed a great deal to those countries. The Zionist movement in itself is a European movement, because the Jews have suffered a great deal in Europe. Some Jews, and many Muslims/Christians for that matter, to this day, believe that the Zionist movement is an extension of "Western" imperialism...


Peace and Justice for ALL

Intresting stuff, ME@SF. I didn't know that the origins were prewar. I had assumed they were post war. Only goes to show. I knew that the Jewish state of Israel was carved out of thin air, as it were. I always assumed it was carved out of post-holocaust guilt, not British anti-semitism.

My comment about the 3000 years came from the assumption that the Philistines in the Bible and the Palestinians of today are related in the same way that the Jews of the Bible are related to the Jews of today.

I am more aware of Britain's Imperial past than most people of my age, having come from a long line of Brits in India. My brother still has a bottle of scotch which my grandfather took up and down the Khyber pass 4 times in the early 20s. But although I am aware of the Raj for family reasons, I am - as I said - woefully ignorant about other areas of British Imperialism.

Incidentally the Prime Minister you mean is Sir Arthur Balfour, and the Sir goes with the Arthur, not the Balfour. Confusing, outdated and wierd as f**k really, the British honours system.

You sparked my curiosity about Balfour, and it seems like the Irish have a right to be a tad irritated with him too.

a Brit called Ben

Be proud of your ancestors Ben. You come from a strong people who were basicly a good people. Hold your head high and do not apoligise for things you have not done. Do not worry if you are politically correct for in most cases it means not. If you are a good and rational person you will see through the evil self serving murderers who hijack rightous causes and religions to further their own ideology. People who would impose a perverse set of beiefs on a global scale subjagating 1/2 of the human race {women} to virtual slaves while brain washing,inprisioning or killing the other half {men} who do not share their beliefs. Do not let the propaganda of these demons in anyway stray from your path.

Starbirth, I think the use of the word 'demons' is a bit strong and does not do much to promote understanding of the various issues involved.

I thank ME@SF for explaining things - I too am a Brit who doesn't know a huge amount about the origins of the arab / israeli conflict. I do understand now a bit more about the grievances of the Palestinians.

I also understand where Ben is coming from. The lesson from Northern Ireland is a good one - I think most people admit that there have been many wrongs done to Ireland by Britain that has contributed to the many years of violence there. But we cannot go back and re-write history. Somehow, we have to try and learn from the past and go forward with a solution that, if it doesn't please everybody, at least is a workable solution that people can live with. I don't have any words of wisdom about what that solution is. It will probably take many more years and unfortunately many more lives to be lost, but I am hopeful that a solution will be found. I am half Irish and the Irish are one of the most stubborn people around. If we can find a way forward, then anyone can.

Jude

Oh Starbirth, thank you. I am proud of the men I am related to, and the women too. I hope what I said did not imply I was not. I am who I am.

agcB

Jude,
The people I was talking about were the terrorist themselves [or what ever name you would put to them} People who target civilian populations killing and terrorizing for their own gain. Such as imposing their set of beliefs. People who say they are a goverment but are unreconised in the civilized world by any legitimate goverment. Yet take over a country and impose their will on the populace. Killing any who disagree or threaten their power. Women brought to a soccer field and shot for not covering thier face or talking back to a man. Men killed for having a beard to long or reading a book. Statues that have been been standing thousands of years, books, art, history destroyed forever gone. I am in no way talking in generalizations about a ethnic or a legitimate religion. Who I was speaking about were people who use religion and ligitimate causes that they really have no intrest in to turn public opinion in their favor. One example the palistinians, They have a legitimate grevience and what was done to them by the united nations after WWII was wrong. I am not so blind to not relise injustices have been done and we need to look at the way goverments interact. But killing innocent civilians is not the way to promote a cause. Do you really believe Bin Laden and his assosiates give a damn about the palisinians? What they do see is a people and cause that they can use to further their perversed ideology. These people wish to send the world back thousands of years to a time when religion was used by a few men to rule over the masses. These men are ruled by a code of cowardacy "when you do not understand something destroy it" These people are petrified of the futureand have no place in it.

I think starbirth that the root of their cowardess has not so much to do with not understanding the future as it does understanding the future too well if you take my meaning. Keeping your population uneducated allows you to be the educator. This insures your hold on them. Without the education it is hard to look beyond one's own door. It is hard to be anything other than oppressed. The control of the Taliban becomes absolute because the people know nothing but the Taliban.

The use (or rather misuse) of the Qu'uran suits their purposes well actually. (although Christianity could be perverted just as easily) Few can withstand the horrible promise and implied threat when the holy words of their faith are used against them. Hell is not something that one plays around with easily, and I would imagine that those women are taught that Hell is just where they'll wind up should the disobey and go un-vieled for example. It's just one more tool for supression.

And it keeps them isolated. Without the t.v., phones, internet etc. they have no way of seeing for themselves that other moslems don't have to live the way they do.

I for one really do think that Osama sympathizes with Hussien. One fanatic deserves another I would say.

Anyway, I wanted to agree with what you had said and then throw in my 2 cents.

I have a couple of "pet" Mormon Missionaries who drop by on a weekly basis. They're not allowed to watch TV, listen to the radio or own a mobile 'phone. I happened to mention the situation in Afghanistan - they were aghast. They knew nothing of it. This was last Wednesday teatime. I think the moral of the story, if it has one, is that the more "religous" someone is, regardless of which faith or denomination, the more chance they will be distanced from the outside world...

Kind of like hermits maybe

I agree any religion can and has been perverted by fanatics or down right bad people. At this time it happens to be Islam.

What we need right now is for islamic clerics in the world to come together and speak the truth loud and clear to the masses. They must stand together and exspose these murderers who have hijacked thier religion. They need not back any policy other than call for all goverments reconised by the UN to help afganistan set up a interim goverment until the afagani people can establish a legitemate goverment. And that any and all acts of terrorer in the name of Islam is blastemy. They must make clear That these terrorist are wrong and not someone to be admired that even though american policies and to a degree western policies in the middle east have had problems. That american and western people are not the enemy. That most americans, europeans, asians, arabs, jewish, indians and other ethnic groups want the same thing. To raise thier familys in a safe world at peace and free of fear and oppresion. That we must come together and our goverments must first work together to stop all terrorist activities, period. Then address and answer the root problems that allow people to become so disenfranchised as to support and side with such evil people. If we can not do this then surely our children will inherit a nightmare exsistence. Maybe a bit simplistic but sometimes that is the best route to solving problems.

What did happen between 1947 and 1950? I was there briefly, these are historial excerpts, taken from newspapers, and other sources published at the time. I was old enough to remember the events but too young at the time to put the situation into its correct context.

The promised invasion by the foreign Arab armies (which started on May 14, 1948, with the Arab Legion massacre of some 200 Jewish settlers at Kfar Etzion) was preceded by extensive broadcasts from Cairo, Damascus, Amman, and Beirut to the effect that any Arabs who stayed would be hanged as collaborators with the Jews.

Jamal Husseini, in charge of the Palestine Higher Committee, told the Security Council on 23 April 1948, "we have never concealed the fact that we began the fighting."

On 6 September 1949, the Beirut Telegraph carried an interview with Mr. Emile Ghoury, Secretary of the Palestine Higher Committee, in which he said: "The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab States in opposing partition and the Jewish State."

Between June and November 1948, bombs set off in the Jewish Quarter of Cairo killed more than 70 Jews and wounded nearly 200. In 1956, the Egyptian government used the Sinai Campaign as a pretext for expelling almost 25,000 Egyptian Jews and confiscating their property. Approximately 1,000 more Jews were sent to prisons and detention camps. On November 23, 1956, a proclamation signed by the Minister of Religious Affairs, and read aloud in mosques throughout Egypt, declared that "all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state," and promised that they would be soon expelled. Thousands of Jews were ordered to leave the country. They were allowed to take only one suitcase and a small sum of cash, and forced to sign declarations "donating" their property to the Egyptian government. Foreign observers reported that members of Jewish families were taken hostage, apparently to insure that those forced to leave did not speak out against the Egyptian government.

When war broke out in 1967, Jewish homes and property were confiscated. Egypt's attitude toward Jews at that time was reflected in its treatment of former Nazis. Hundreds were allowed to take up residence in Egypt and given positions in the government. The head of the Polish Gestapo, Leopold Gleim (who had been sentenced to death in absentia), controlled the Egyptian secret police.

Between 1948-1950, 59,000 Jews were evacuated from Yemen in "Operation Magic Carpet".These people were considered to be "an indigenous religious minority"by both the U.N. and the Arabs of Saudi Arabia.

In addition there were the European displace Jews. Where should they all have gone? The Palestinians were welcomed into Jordan, but....that is another story and far too long for a post. As is this one really.

At the risk of repeating myself, there were two peoples (BCE) called Phillistines. The first were a people from Anatolia/Armenia called the Amsarru. The second were Greek Mercenaries/settlers. Phyllistia,
Goliath, Gath (Gaza) are all Greek names. The Roman emperor Hadrian renamed the land Palestine after the last Jewish revolution 132CE. There has been a remnant Jewish population in Israel since biblical times.

Ether,
All these events that you list are TERRIBLE for sure, and no human wishes them for any other human.
However, to turn a blank eye on the tragedies the Zionists have committed in Palestine is TERRIBLE as well
in 1948 the UN lists 252 Palestinian towns and villages that were obliterated by the Zionist gangs (these gangs later on formed the Israeli Army, with the most qualified of them (read: Most blood on their hands) becoming the prime ministers of Israel: Yitzhak Shamir and Menachim Begin).
when the British, who were the legitimate authorities in Palestine, tried to do something about the situation, they were repeatedly attacked by these Zionist terrorists (Stern Gang and Haganah, the best example being the British soldiers massacre at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.
the fact is, these Zionist terrorists introduced the phenomena of terrorism into the Middle East in order to achieve their aims. They terrorized the UN, the British (who btw are the same ones who allowed them in the Palestine), and most importantly they terrorized the indigenous inhabitants of the country, who were either ethnically cleansed from their lands, or even massacred.

I wish the BBC would do interviews with some the survivors, I bet some of them still living in the camps since that year 1948, and maybe have CNN show it as well (I doubt they will)....

the moral of the story is "Violance breeds Violance",
when all these atrocities happen to a civilian population, that you considered to be brothers to you, you only expect extreme reactions


Peace and Justice for ALL

You are correct violence breeds violence but unfutunently no responce to violence breeds extinction.

As persons on this thread have stated there is a deep seated hatred amongst the ethnic groups of the middle east and no easy soloution is realistic.

It is a no win situation for the US I fear If they interviene and try to bring peace to the region at least one side if not both will trasfer their hate to the US.
I believe outside intervention no matter it be nobelistic, self serving or more likely a combination of these reasons by the US will
be rough road to hoe resulting in the US being berated for sticking the nose where it doe's not belong.

I also believe If the US trys to stay out of the situation they will be condemed for following a Isolationist policy, allowing atrocities to occur under their nose's.

Catch-22. I am of the opinion that the only way for peace to have any chance in this region is for the religious leaders in that area to come together in a real and commited way under the auspise of a UN that has the actual power to protect and inforce the proccess.

But than again I am just one person.

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To paraphrast a certain Israeli leader: There will be peace in the world when people love their children more than they hate each other.

the haganah was a recognized paramilitary organization which answered to the British and whose weapons were confiscated because of it.

A few little known facts: The UN offered self determination to both Arabs and Jews in Palestine in their own separate states. Palestinian Arabs could have created their own state in the portion allotted to them under partition at the time, which was a major part of the land. The Jews were only offered two enclaves and Jerusalem would be an internation city. The Arabs unanimously rejected the offer and tried to grab all the territory for themselves.

The British Mandate on Palestine included what is now Jordan, then called Transjordan Palestine, so technically there is an Arab Palestinian state. It's called Jordan.

Contrary to popular belief, the majority of the Jewish enclaves was in fact Jewish. It was the Jews who were building, dryland-farming, draining swamps, and offering jobs to Arab laborers. Before the Jews built them, there were no roads, only dirt tracks. (Palestine Royal Commission, Maritime Plain in 1913)

Zionism is not the sole cause of the current state of the Palestinians. They have been refused residence in every Arab country and were forced into refugee camps by the other Arab states, not by Israel. Why are Palestinians forbidden to own property in any other Arab state?