h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

It all comes from blues music, Bouncy.

Apparently the term 'rock and roll' is credited to a US deejay, though I can't remember his name right now.

az

Alan Freedman, I think, or something similar.

BouncyBitInTheMiddle

My understanding has always been that it was the other way round R+B developed as a 'Juke Joint' equivalent of Rocking and rolling, then in the 1950's the european descended population appropriated 'rock and roll' as a description for their version, social historians seem to think that this was a description of the 'black' music that middle class white communities could accept, particularly when it was being listened to by their own children, it is usually argued that it was the religious association which created the 'acceptability' of this. Of course later on it gets even more confusing because Rock and roll in the 50's sense gets fragmented again into rock, pop and folk (A' La Bob Dylan)

Then of course it get's really confusing as Jazz and world music feed back into the mix, and the distinctions between different styles becomes harder and harder to distinguish e.g. Reggae and Ska which always seems to be an arbitary distinction based on social factors rather than differences in the style. Eg heavy Rock is just loud with lots of ego solos, (Paganini would have loved it) Jazz rock is just free form etc....

Philosophically its all rock and roll anyway (Even And prehaps especially Beethoven Mozart ect.. so where that leaves us I don't Know.

Ho Hum (my Phrase for the day it seems)

Yeah, I thought of the name Alan Freedman as well, though didn't have time to check if it was him. And it isn't for sure that he had coined the term, only that it has gone down in rock&roll history as being such.

Almost all music we hear today stems from the blues. Including jazz, rock&roll, R&B up to the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and beyond. It would be hard to find any band presently working who didn't owe something to the blues. Except perhaps Latin American/Spanish music.

az

Sticking with the somewhat large tangent from the god theme....

It seems to me that the 'it all goes back to the Blues' is getting harder and harder to sustain, not that I would dispute that it's influence in the 20th century was enormous.

Jazz was heavily influenced by the blues but also represented an additional theme (Forgive the pun) for musicians world wide, hence the independent strand that grew up in france in the 20's 30's ect.. e.g. Diango Reinhart. For me the improvisation that this theme represents was at the time being increasingly lost from 'classical music' at the time. Most of the contemporary compsers were either exploring alternate tonalities or were 'writing the coda's' which had represented the improvisational element of classical music for centuries, coda's which had represented the musician's opportunity to let loose were now just as restrictive as the 'composed' elements of the various pieces.

It has been said that Handel re-wrote every one of his compositions for every performance and the last one written is just that, not necissarily the best at all, and at each performance improvisation would be a fundamental aspect of what the audience heard.

For most of the 20th century Jazz musicians held this improvisational element for music as a whole, drawing in many styles, eg latin music represented by Diango and others, but also world music. By the mid 70s Jazz rock performers such as Frank Zappa had re introduced improvisation to classical musicians and were becoming strong influences on rock and pop bands.

Personally I belive that most of todays music, dance, rock and pop owe as much to the classical, rock, folk and Jazz traditions as they do to the Blues, and that the element of the blues that was so influential, ie a rythmic lament on the difficulties of life is also held by other traditions, eg african musicians such as Baba Mal or Mansour Seck, the Band aid tradition has further fertilised western popular music with these traditions as have other landmark concerts such as paul simons Gracelands concert.

Afterword

Its all to the good of course..

Footnote

one thing I also wonder about is the social role of the Blues in Black culture, particularly Black American Culture. Clearly it is vastly important, but I wonder if there would not be many members of the black community who would value Jazz performers as equally significant, Louie Armstrong springs to mind, but also Bird and others. I wonder as well whether it may be just as important to acknowledge that the original Blues owed as much to 'folk' music as modern 'folk' music does to the blues, although the folk in question probably came from many different parts of the world.

Further footnote,

Is this a truly artistic question?

All really good art is deeply linked to the expression of emotion and I wonder if the Blues as astyle represents the anguished cry of an oppressed people? Forgive me if this sounds a bit obvious. Is it this cry which makes the blues so significant, especially as that cry became so loud that governments had to take notice in the latter half of the 20th century.

In the world of the overproduced, media music we have today, the cry for freedom seems lost, and there are still serious elements of oppression to be addressed. a good deal of modern music seems directed to 'keep the population entertained and unconcerned with politics' hence voter apathy and lackluster attempts to address it. Many of the young people I have contact with regard the blues as 'old fashioned' 'boring' and depressing.

Enough I say enough... I could as you no doubt can tell go on...

More later prehaps

hi Strontium Dog,

As far as I know, blues pre-dates jazz. By a lot. I've asked my friend Blues Shark to come and clear up any mistaken concepts about this, though not sure if he will do so.

I also think that the blues *was* the original folk music in America, or at least in the way you have suggested. The Paris jazz scene you talk about was definitely influenced by black American musicians. Again, I don't have all the info at my fingers ends but Django Reinhart was a French gypsy musician who had his own style that was not without certain blues riffs from America - not sure how that happened.

<>

I can only assume these are people who have only heard your basic twelve bar slow blues about heart-ache and all that. There are more forms of blues than you could shake a stick at - it is so all-encompassing. It also created gospel music. It was the source of creating so many types of music even though some cannot now recognise blues as being the root of it. At least that is my opinion.

az

Alan Freed.

toxx

Thanks, toxx,

So, going to add your photo to the gallery?

az

Az, I don't exist in digitised form as yet. Oh, and Django was Belgian.

toxx

Yeah, I know Django wasn't exactly French, though I wasn't sure where he hailed from. Belgium, you say?

I once met Stephan Grappelli in person when I was working at an outdoor music festival in Canada. My 'claim to fame' is that, while helping him to where he had to go, he scowled at me most unkindly as if it had been *my* fault he'd had to come to the site on the bus and not in a limo. Eek.

az

Speaking of incredibly gifted musicians, it's often assumed that artistic gifts and talents come 'from God'. A gift from God.

I think this is true. But I see it within the 'Fred' concept, that we are all 'god'. So of course, whatever we have is a part of being Fred. Or 'god', or whatever name you choose.

So who do we thank for our 'gifts'? Well, just be thankful, I reckon. That they exist. And that you exist.

I joked earlier that gospel music could make an atheist jump up and praise the Lord. This has to do with the music. It is so real and from the heart that anyone with a heart cannot be anything but moved by such passion. So it doesn't even matter which god they are praising. It is their passion that is so contagious and that you know they are ultimately singing for the god within themselves. Because music is always very personal.

az

Az

My argument re Jazz is that as well as being for all intents and purposes a paralell devleopment to the blues, although the name as far as I am aware relates to 1920's new Orleans or something like it the model of playing is as old as the hills, pre-dating the development of notation. Ie more than 500 years ago. The named form of Jazz also grew out of Rag time which was a parallel development independant (As far as any musical style can be) from the blues but from the same tradition.

A purist might argue that the original American Folk music was the property of the inhabitants of Turtle Island (The name the indigenous peoples of America give themselves. Principaly drums and song using 5 7 and 9 note scales)

There are many folk traditions in America, many of which pre-date the blues, including the last remnants of English Folk music, Irish Folk, German french, in fact contributions from the whole of europe. These have often been amalgamated into other traditions such as blue grass ect.

There are also remnants of numerous and sometimes unrelated african traditions. many West African musical traditions have claimed to be the parent style to the blues itself.

What all these styles have in common is the pentatonic scale, and the 145 progression, with added thirds and sevenths here and there.

America was a melting pot, (Lots of immigrants) all these various forms came together, and the result was a group of new forms led by but not exclusively defined by the Blues.

I terms of the develoment of modern popular music Blues was probably the most influential from the 30s up to the early 80's but from there we have begun to include such a variety of traditions that it seems disrespectful to them to over emphasise its importance. e.g. the highly significant influence of the indian classical tradition on the development of modern dance music in the uk and the circular relationship that latin music seems to have with dozens of different styles, eg north African.

I love the blues but I am increasingly of the opinion that it's influence can be overstated, But should not be ignored.

Once again, az, I have to disagree. According to Prof John Sloboda who was internal examiner of my PhD thesis, musical ability is directly correlated with time spent in practice. He has worked with top musicians, but we may argue that Mozart, Bach etc were 'gifted' beyond what hard work can achieve. Even so, I think that for the most part we have to allow that John is correct.

toxx

Hmm, blues and jazz. well, there's a thing. Blues stems directly from field hollers and chants used by black workers in the fields, and can certainly be traced back to Middle and North Africa in that fashion - Mali's Ali Farke Toure and the Malian-Arab group Tinawerein certainly have much in common with the delta blues of artists such as Son House and particularly John Lee Hooker.

Jazz developed in and around New Orleans and was a result of local musicians using european melodies and local rhythms. artists such as Louis Theroux Gottschalk were doing it as long ago as the 1880's. Echoes of that tradition can still be heard in the piano playing of figures such as Professor Longhair and Dr John.

I would suspect that jazz and travelled over with troops from the US during WWI. if I remember correctly Django developed his unique stylings after he was injured during the war. European Jazz developed on very different lines to US jazz, but it is younger.

I guess as pure art forms, blues is slightly younger than jazz. The first real record of the blues was in 1910 when minstrel WC Handy recorded his meeting with an itinerant guitar player in Tutwilwer, Mississippi. Our record of jazz goes back some way further, and by the time that Handy was recording his meeting, jazz was already losing it's first great star, the unrecorded but legendary Buddy Bolden.

But blues is certainly the bedrock upon which nearly all modern rock is based. The rhythms, lyrics and even the trappings of blues (particularly it's association with the devil) are all still carried by rock. It was blues musicians Ike Turner and Jackie Brenton who recorded (arguably) the first rock'n'roll record, 'Rocket 88'. When Elvis wanted to sing a song for his mother, he chose Arthur 'Big Boy' Crudups 'That's All Right Mama', which was already some 40 years old.

For more on the blues, try starting here A1095248. Appalling self publicity I know, but it will save this post from getting out of control.

Yo, Stron. I'm pleased to hear that folk traditions such as those recorded in the Appalachians have not been forgotten in this conversation.

toxx

<>

You're right, toxx. We will have to disagree on this one.

Certainly one can improve with practice. But musical ability is, I think, innate. Just like many other abilities. With enough practice I could probably become a very good mathematician, for example, but I would never be a gifted one.

az

az. I think we have to go along with the evidence. Here is just a sample of the work which should be of interest: http://www.zainea.com/ability.htm

toxx

Yes, it's an interesting article, toxx, but I don't necessarily go along with it. Some bits, maybe. Musical ability *can* be learned, to some extent. Musical talent cannot. Musical genius is something else again.

I've just known so many musicians in my life that I've seen a lot of differences. The ones who wanted so much to be musicians and practiced hard every day and the others who simply *were* musicians. Their practice time was not so much about 'trying to be a good musician' but rather about becoming more of what they already were. Not sure if that makes sense.



Blues,

I'd forgotten about Buddy Bolden.


az

<>

And what does time spent in practice correlate with? (az mentioned the *desire* to be a musician.)

Stephen Pinker hypothesises that the social need for diversity and specialisation and the psychological need to make one's own identity serve to magnify relatively modest differences in innate capabilities.

Being great at anything requires both inspiration and perspiration.

Noggin

I dunno; turn your back for five minutes and the place suddenly comes to life again.