h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Satanic abuse: people have cloudy memories of being abducted by strange people who perform sexual actions on them; most of these memories are recovered under hypnosis by therapists who believe in satanic abuse.

Alien abduction: people have cloudy memories of being abducted by strange people who perform sexual experiments on them; most of these memories are recovered under hypnosis by therapists who believe in alien abductions.

Spot the similarity?

Noggin

"although in the case of pupal stage one imagines that even if asked the pupae might just wonder what the question meant"

If you have to ask the question, you won't understand the answer...

hi Heathen,

<>

I'm not a Christian.

Yes, I do know that children in the same family never experience the *same* upbringing. I think my point was that, aside from conditioning that happens later on, we are also born with different personalities and capabilities, so this would also affect how we deal with situations, and also conditioning stuff.

az

"Here's an amusing anecdote from a naturist site."

LOL!
I have to say one of the best feelings in the world is riding a bicycle naked. Some of the European naturists sites are big enough to enable fairly long bike rides. Having a kilometre or so of open sandy beach to yourself is great as well.

"Monozygotic or 'identical' twins at that."

Knew I'd omitted something vital!

Noggin,

I read somewhere recently about some therapists helping people recover memories of childhood abuse also sometimes influence their patients to the extent that they might 'remember' something happening that hadn't happened. Though I believe this is not the norm.

az

"I'm not a Christian."

Whoops! I *am* having a good day! How many more people can I offend???

Heathen,

You haven't offended me at all. It's just that I'm not a Christian.

az

toxxin,

<>

Because taking pictures of naked children to post on the internet or put into magazines says that the photographer had the notion of sexual titillation in mind while taking the photos and one cannot say that this attitude has not affected the children in a negative way.

<>

It isn't spontaneous nudity if one is made to strip and pose. Do you honestly think that children are so unaware?

az

For those of a certain turn of mind: Imagine an "abstract logical space" - the space of all possible personal development outcomes; this space is, for all practical purposes, initially infinite, but every gene you inherit, and every experience you have or action you perform, every choice (whether delibarate or accidental), sets you on a particular path and closes off a region of this space. Logically the earliest events, your genes and early experience, close off the largest regions.

Noggin

Noggin,

That makes sense, but it is also unfortunate if so many things get closed off to us so early on in our lives, this happens before we have a chance to make a rational decision or choice about them.

az

az

For childhood abuse in general, most of which is remembered without the aid of hypnosis, I'd certainly agree with you, but the specific form of the "satanic" abuse scares of a few years past do have this similarity of form to "alien abductions".

A number of "abductees" have been observed by others to have been asleep at the time the abductions are supposed to have taken place, and there seems to be a connection with a condition known as sleep paralysis, where the sufferer partially wakes up, but is unable to move (during dreaming the ability to physically move gets switched off). I've had a couple of episodes of this myself, and it's scary.
During one of these I saw a hooded, robed figure by my bed (probably the play of light and shadow through the curtains). Now if it'd had been a grey man and then I'd been hypnotised and asked where the little grey man took me...

Noggin

Noggin,

<>

So you think this is often a case of wishful thinking?

az

Holy smoke.. that was a big thread !.Good afternoon every one.. and God god, the intellectualism is really intimidating
Azahar Hi'ya
HS and Della thank you, And yes Yes, Yes.
Ditto toxxin Posting 13891& 13895,13878
Thanks for the heads up Malaclypsy
Yes Noggin. .Some sort of consensus doesn't make for truth. "religion and politics prove that every day".. (lifting his legs of the floor, and putting them on the desk... )
working, working just keep working pulled the sort straw for a weekend on duty. might vanish from time to time. pleas forgive.

No problem, AD.

az
Not wishful thinking, no. But hypnosis and halfasleepness are both suggestible states of mind, and the ease with which false memories can be implanted in them has been demonstrated; the only invention then required is to make the false memories fit in with the existing ones. Abductees often claim that the sleeper was not them, but a simulacrum left behind by the aliens to preseve secrecy. A "changeling", as a believer in the "wee folk" might have put it a few hundred years back.

Noggin

hi ADent,

Actually posting 13895 was Moth's not toxxin's.

<>

I am sure you are being ironic. (God god?) If not,

After all, intellectualism can sometimes mean someone is intelligent and wise, but other times it may just mean they have read a lot of books.

I actually don't know who the intellectuals on this thread are. Go on - fess up you guys!

az

Noggin,

Interesting. When I was in therapy many years ago it was suggested that I undergo hypnosis as I seemed to be 'too blocked' (memory wise). Well, there was no way no day I wanted to do this. Even though my therapist said I could bring along a trusted friend and the entire procedure would be video taped. In the end I felt more comfortable having many half-memories half-remembered than perhaps ending up with someone else's suggested memories. I reckoned, and I think quite reasonably so, that my memory was blocked for a reason - that somehow I didn't feel ready to remember everything. So, why push that?

I think our minds are so complex and interesting that we *are* able of creating 'realities' that are not actually real, and that we *will* believe them if we want to believe them enough.

I can only surmise that these abductees wanted to believe in the idea that they had been abducted to the point that it became real to them.

On the other hand, what is real?

az

"God god, the intellectualism is really intimidating "

Ah, but that's what makes it such fun. What's the point if you don't get stretched from time to time?

"But hypnosis and halfasleepness are both suggestible states of mind, and the ease with which false memories can be implanted in them has been demonstrated"

IIRC, Noggin, not everyone is susceptible to hypnosis. AFAIK those who are are already of a susceptible mentality. If I'm correct, then we go round in cicles.

Intellectualism is *meant* to be intimidating.

On the other hand, calling yourself Noggin the Nog rather detracts from the effect.

I've read a lot of books, too. "Spot the Dog", "Janet and John", "Noddy", the list is endless...

To backtrack a little ways..

toxx

Yes, definitions involve assumptions. All language does.

I think you'd agree that X is a useful word where "Everything that is the case is (constitutes) X" (Reality perhaps?)

LW goes on
2. The world (or X) is the totality of the facts, not of things.

And immediately things get tricky; for a fact is a fact only within some framework of explanation. Some of these, (such as facts about "medium sized dry goods in the immediate vicinity") have fairly uncontroversial frameworks; others don't. Or to put it another way - all facts are, in part, constituted by stipulations.

Noggin