h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi Diversity .

Ah, I would disagree with your interpretation of the catholic schoolboy looking out the window tale.I was also that catholic schoolboy and I have a few points regarding that:
1. If the teacher had been of any worth you would not have been looking out of the window in the first place.
2. Looking out of the window you were learning about the world by observation.
3. Looking out of the window you were probably day-dreaming and thus engaging your imagination (not a faculty modern education gives much credit to, though it is the source of almost every scientific and artistic advance in human history).
4. The fact that your 'guardian angel' motivated your sister to violence shows that the Catholic God is petty and unmerciful.

My perspective on what you ask is that nature isn't a 'resource', a thing to be used and discarded. We live in a closed ecological system on a small planet. We have no method for absenting ourselves.

Over the past thousand years we have progressively removed ourselves from the natural cycles of the planet through our science and technology and we have consistently paid the price for our arrogance. Unfortunately so have many of our fellow travellers.

The payment we have made for our arrogance isn't just in terms of physical disasters but also in terms of our psychological and spiritual health. You can't evolve an organism as marvellous as the human being over millions of years and suddenly expect it to change utterly in just a few hundred without serious deleterious effects.

What many people are now trying to do, including Druids, is to try to retune ourselves to the natural cycles of life on this planet, and where possible restore it. This is not the approach of a group of uninformed luddites, but one of a purposeful and intelligent movement. Most of us subscribe to the Gaia theory, though often from widely differing perspectives, and try to live by the principles that flow from it.

Walk lightly upon the earth and leave your children a better home than you found.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Hi Azahar .

Firstly thank you, you do me honour.

Don't worry about the tone of some replies to what I propose, disrespect (if it is indeed there) is absolutely necessary. If we don't disrespect what we are told and attempt to look at it from new angles how are we to ascertain the truth of it? Unquestioning acceptance is decay in action.

Please do not read from my postings that I am secure in my beliefs. If I was I would not be here. I may even have become as fossilised as Justin. To assume that I know all that I need to and thus not need to present it to open debate by my peers is a pit of stagnation I never intend to step into .

Being 'a bundle of unanswered questions when it comes to god' is one of the best states to be in. For you still have so much to discover and experience. What fun lies ahead of you!

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

I know this is slightly off subject for the debate but I have to agree with what Matholwch is getting accross. I have been studying psychology because of an initial interest that started from reading the Alvin Toffler book 'Future Shock' when I was about 16. Lately I had to re-read it to include it in a presentation and it is amazing not only how accurate it has become but also how the concepts of change and alienation from an accepted natural cycle seemed at the time like a horror story, both to the author, and the reviewers. In addition I have come accross increasing amounts of health Psych texts dealing with anxiety based on perceived place in everchanging world-anxiety excitation, 'daily hassle' stress models etc...At the same time I am trying to diet, not particularly successfully, so I read the Dr Atkinson book. This is full of exhortations to the reader to reconsider their intakes (refined sugar up from 9 lbs in 1891 to 120 lbs in 1991 pp/pa.for example)

What struck me about this was the fact that popular books-not just psych texts, are referring in detail to the ways in which we have strayed from natural systems. The food we eat, the landscape we live in and how we perceive the world-or more to the point the nature of the world we are presented to perceive, are radically different from that I was given as a kid,and I'm only 37, and we are asked constantly to accept massive change 'for our convenience' or just to 'keep up'.

Trying to focus on how one perceived the world at another given moment is never easy but if I concentrate I can just about remember a time when things were not as they are. When progress was at least co-joined with optimism and some sort of hope.

Seemingly the worst sin one can commit in this age is being behind, or perhaps the WORST sin is being deliberately, wontonly behind-out of the loop and not caring. We have most definitely in my opinion lost touch. Matholwch, I doubt that you will get much in the way of good wishes from most of us, at least while we can still drive and breathe, but quite likely time will prove you right, which I doubt will be a comfort,

In peace,

Rain.

Well being outside almost all loops I can say as a outside observer it does seem strange to me how someone can like fast food for example. I have almost all home cooked meals, and never go into "fashion" in any grate detail unless its 'that looks like its warm, and its cold today, it doesnot have any major stains on it and I ware it now' as I am about as choosy as a wolf is about its next meal. Its meat and its walking so I will eat it, as it where. However its not a particularly useful metaphore, I can't actuly say I have ever been involed in any major 'world wide' crases in fashion or style, but I am a part of a few groups in which I may possibly think that my actions may be to the group as it where. I can't see how or why being out of the loop can be a Sin as such just somthing more conservative people put the nose down at.
I don't consider my actions to be sinful but I infact do admit that somtimes feel that people who are inclind to be 'fashion contious' as it where are a little bit stupid and starnge (which is probebly what they consider me).

Rain and Math
You got it.
I often wonder whay do we DO this racing life stuff to ourselves?
I watched walking with Cavemen last night, a BBC thing, and noted how many of our current day 'ills' come from our ape ancestors, in the name of survival.
It seems that we still hang on to some of these survival tactics when they are no longer needed.
We're only here apparently because we adapted to eating meat, the protein and fat making our brain bigger, Big enough to be inquisitive, which saved us
Imagination saved the race of man.
The ape line which could not imagine eating anything but roots died when these roots died.
Mankind decided to eat anything that he could get his teeth into.
Now we still retain a 'must have fat /protein' idea hard wired into our brain.
must have a 'leader' of group hardwired into our brain.
must reproduce hard wired into our brain.
and that inquisitive nature that stood us so well in the cave, results in a 'fear' of boredom.
Perhaps we've all come to far too fast.
Will we be imaginative enough to adapt to the next big thing, the changes that must come due to climate and toxins and over population.?
Will we ever be able to scale down our hardwired compulsion to grab everything as if there was no tomorrow?

Raindog .

Someone once said to me, "You greenies will almost certainly have the last laugh, but you're too po-faced to take it".

I can assure you that that is not so. I shall be laughing like a drain as the antibiotic resistant superbug finally claims me, for life will always find a way. If it is not to be us then perhaps a civilisation of rats or cockcroaches will achieve a balance within nature .

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Hi Hasselfree .

It has occurred to me that the whole ecological movement has taken the wrong tack in trying to persuade the world about the trouble we're in as a species.

Until now they have relied upon science, logic and reason and have been rebuffed with 'financial necessity' and more science.

Perhaps if we made everyone believe, or even half believe that the earth is sacred and if you didn't work to improve it and live within the cycles of nature then the evil boogy goddess will eat your liver for eternity when you die, then maybe they'd listen?

We could have Druids preaching on street corners proclaiming that the 'end is nigh', and 'recycle or die'. We could stone over-consumers and hoarders and users of fossil fuels.

I think I feel an epiphany coming on, save me Gaia! Save me!

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

She won't really eat us will she???

Math
Emm not quite enough fire and brimstone. Work on it.
Rain
Metaphorically speaking ..er ..she does

Maybe people are more receptive to ecologically-friendly ideas and solutions that don't arrive laden with doom, leaving a trail of guilt and anxiety in their wake?

Hi Math!

>4. The fact that your 'guardian angel' motivated your sister to violence shows that the Catholic God is petty and unmerciful.<

OOOPS! I may have misled you on this one. I really don't think that my guardian angel was really up to that sort of thing, although I can't be sure. And I really don't think that if he did it was officially sanctioned by God. Although, I do think God has an incredible sense of humor... and it was just a whack on the head...

>What many people are now trying to do, including Druids, is to try to retune ourselves to the natural cycles of life on this planet, and where possible restore it<

That is what I was really asking. Does that reconcilation lead to an ultimate AHHH HAAA! moment at the end when we finally figure it all out?

Thanks
diversity

hi della,

<>

That also resonates somewhere inside me, for what it's worth. In the end, what else can we go on? My brain is a very active organ in my body, but other parts of my body often seem to know much more than my brain does.

I don't particularly trust my mind to KNOW things - it's way too clever for its own boots at times and often tries to trick me into believing things the rest of me knows isn't quite right.

weirdly yours,
azahar

hi darakat,

WHO are all these THEYS telling you all this crap? And why do you even listen to them? Listen to yourself. You seem extremely far from stupid to me!

Basically, if someone is so insecure that they feel a need to call you stupid, then you already know their opinion is worthless.

You sound like you are full of various beliefs but are still not sure about WHERE to put all this stuff, for yourself, personally. Well, join the club. I'd say that's why most of us are here in this chat forum about god.

I think we all believe in something, even if that 'something' might not be clear or sometimes cannot be put into words. Anyhow, keep asking your questions. And you might find some of the answers interesting to yourself.

besitos,
azahar

hi diversity,

The nuns HIT you on the head? Just because you were daydreaming? I share Math's opinion that most probably their classes weren't interesting enough to keep a young inquisitive mind like yours occupied. But there is never any excuse for physical violence.

meanwhile, don't talk to me about nuns! Buncha weirdos, most of them. Catholic priests as well. Totally sexually frustrated beings who have chosen to follow a strict religion that does not allow them to ever be whole as humans.

Okay, before I get hit with a lot of nasty stuff about what I just said, let me also say this.

Hey, my aunt is a nun. But she decided to do this as a career option - where she grew up in Newfoundland in the 40's it was either find a decent husband or rot. But she was an intelligent woman and thought that by becoming a nun she would at least be assured of a decent education, with opportunities to travel, etc. She became a music teacher, she can play the harp as well as several other instruments. And she also travelled, she now lives in upper-state New York.

And she would never - ever - hit anyone over the head.

Diversity, no one ever has the right to hit you - not ever. Not the nuns, not your parents, not anybody. Okay, sounds like you have rationalized all of that for yourself. But I disagree. That was so totally wrong. And in the end, there is NO excuse for it except that the people who should have known better chose to behave in a very shameful manner. And in the name of god, no less.

Do you really believe that God has a sense of humour? I asked this question a long time ago and nobody answered it.

much love,
azahar

I am one hundred % certain god has a sense of humour.

why?

There's anteaters for a start, and platypuses, and Leo Di Caprio, and McDonalds, and butter mountains, and Canadians.hahahahahaha-sorry Az.

Have you had a good bath recently, rain ? You seem to be itchin for sumthin.

Okay, I can go along with Leo Di Caprio. But as for Canadians, doncha know?, we are those very kindly folk with no ego whatsoever. If in doubt, go and see Bowling for Columbine.

Butter mountains, eh? Sounds kinda sexy to me!

After the bath, don't forget the flea powder.

az

They are... wait for it....wait for it....wait for it.......alright you guessed it MISSIONARIES! Those people who go knocking on doors trying to make you join there religion. There very intersting people to ammas a major theological debate with if you have some spare time. Its esspecaily funny when they ask you what gives you joy.... you can if you have nothing else better to say that doing somthing like slaming the door on them will give you hours of enjoyment. Its esspecaily funny when they say "do belive in God?" I usealy say "Possibly" it gives them hope that they have a small chance of converting me, yeah like thats gonna happen. As for if I really do belive in some supreme being, well yes and no, I cant say that Humans in all our (glory?) have infact been created on this earth on purpose. Well If we have then obviously its for some reason or goal of this supreeme being no? Well possibly then as well, infact almost eveyery theory that most of my more religious freinds come up with I can usally say possibly to. It is possible, but I never say its very likely.
Sure we may have been created by god (indirectly or directly), but I can't see how we whould be specail in this respect. I like to think of god as a scientist, a speculative expiramenter and a bloody good mathmaticain as well as possibly being a quantum programer and probebly alround extreemly smart guy. I think that if he did create us (directly or indirectly) and if he has such power, why whould he just do it once? I sure think he whould do it thousands of times, if not billions of times. Creating life everywhere in the universe that life can exist (and possibly in a few places where life dosen't exist) and thus allowing for trail and error to occor.
How can I say this, well from given evidence. We have eveloution correct? If the theory is right then obviously it whould be the unviversail. This could infact prove that god exists. If we find life on another planet it in fact proves this theory that god likes to cover all his bases (esspecaily when there acids... I know its bad isent it?). Thus creationists have nothing to fear if we find over life. Even if its life that kills us outright (as in a virus or somthing).
Its also rather strage to claim that belif is a demoracy (this is one of the good old creationist arguents). They say that since 80% of the population of the world bleive in some sort of higher being/god/s. This is of course a load of dingoes kidneys. I don't think god actuly cares if we belive in him creating us, its just a very useful tool. Belif allowed us to become more than a monkey than fell out trees a lot. This can be said however that if god does esist it proes that 80% correct, hoever if it proves that he doesnt then obviously that 80% where wrong. This is where a creationist will tell you that a majority can't be wrong becuase its a majority and majority rules over minorites. It is also where I usealy think the argument of the "Damm stupid Belif" theory that I always pull on missionaries as well. It goes somthing like this.

If say a guy belives in the bible. All of it. Word for word. He is the local parrish preist in a small out of the way town. No-one much ever goes to the town and those who do tend to keep to themselves. This is a pretty commen sernario and is hyperphetical but useful. Say that his copy of the bible is wrong. Not in any major way that most people whould notice, but its just a printing flaw. Instead of faith, hope, and charity it says faith, hop, and charity. Sudenly a new religion is born. The Abvent Sabith Day Hoppists. They hop every seventh day, all day. Does this make there belif wrong as they are a MINORITY. Correct?
No says a creationist, they belive in god and are thus a part of a majority of people. But they do not blive in the correct form of the bible, does this make them wrong, or discounted. This is where a creationist suddenly gets hit by the probilly cause. Thay say "They might not be counted yes.". Brilent huh?
Now I don't say that this is proof that the creationist is wrong. Belief could quite easaly be a majority/minority thing. But if the majorty beleved in pink elephants whould this make it true? It might. The majority used to belive that the moon was made out of chese. This was pretty dam well false, but it doesnot do anything for the argument.
The argument is of course if god, does, or does not exist? Well I might come up with his telephone number. Until then the eternal veritys are safe... or are they?

Az, you are getting frisky on me-shame on you.Although cannot argue that butter mountain is in no way sexual-surely Di Caprio is? Pull yourself together woman! for god's sake control yourself.

Incidentally flea powder below both ears and a new, thicker, collar(leather!)stop it stop it stop it!
Rain