h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Well, I guess since I'm here I might as well stand up and be counted. *Deep breath* I'm a Christian.

And I'm a rather old-school one. That is, I believe in one God, formed of the trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe that (though the evolutionary process) he created the universe and then the human race. I believe that he appeared as an incarnation on Earth 2000+ years ago, lived and then died to forgive our sins, bringing us into relationship with him.

I want you all to know something else. I think of myself as relatively intelligent. I have a Bachelor's degree in English, a minor in Sociology, an IQ of 135 and I've done a lot of reading and philosophizing in my 24 years on this planet.

I'm not here to fight with anyone, but to simply tell another side of the story. A side where I believe in the teachings of Jesus... loving your neighbors, not worrying about tomorrow, trusting in something greater than yourself, being slow to anger. Yes, I know most if not all people fall short, but I still want to keep trying. Because I believe it's right to try and take care of other people.

I may disagree with Agnosticism and Atheism, but that doesn't mean I have no respect for people with those beliefs. I just don't think they're right. If you want to know more about why I believe what I do, or want to debate, I'll be happy to do so. But I'd ask anyone who wants to talk to be polite and respectful. Flaming won't get anyone anywhere.

Peace.

-Eagle1

I was where you are now. I was a Sunday School teacher and a deacon in the church. I believe in God and Jesus but I do not believe the whole Bible. I did at one time. I do not need the Bible to believe in the living God. There has been so many changes to it. For one, there are three books which have been taken out of it. One being the Book of Thomas which would probably abolish all religions. Plus I went through hell by so called Christians when I came out as being homosexual. I was told God hates homosexuals. The word homosexual did not come into the Bible till the mid-19th centuary. You told us of your qualification. Why don't you look into the history of the Bible. I think you will be very surprised. Be happy. God is love

Maybe earth seems pretty bad if you look at it's faults but it has it's beauty too. That's one of the things the H2G2 points out over and over. There may be better places and there are probably worse places. I am a Christian who believes the difficulties in this world are the result of the choices Man makes, not God. Famines, disasters, etc are the result of what we mess us or expect to be protected from. If we are part of a natural world we must accept that nature is not always kind and forgiving. God created a perfect world and gave man the ability to choose (hense not totally controled by instinct). I am NOT a fundamentalist so I don't pretend that we need to count the days it took to create, or argue over the big bang. The real message is how do we treat each other and do we really take care of the world we are part of? Do we accept that life will be hard for some and easy for others. Only magical imaginary Gods would create a beautiful world and then change it. We are living in a great experiment and some of us suffer. It comes with one guarantee, our bodies will die eventually as all living things do. Some of us believe there is a part that continues on but that doesn't mean that we are excused from responsibility to the world we were all given to care for. Sorry if this sounded like a sermon.
Peace and beauty are what you want them to be.

Why can't people believe in themselves and be done with it. Or are we brain washed so much as children to believe in God someone better than us. That we have been made to feel inferior towards ourselves. And brought up to believe in this hell place where we will toast if we don't believe in God. Is that why people believe in God because of their fear of the unknown?.

Believe in ourselves? Not inferior? Have you seen what happens when the masses try to worship the Self or the State, or anything else associated with something specifically human-made and not something seen as superior to us? Communism and Fascism come to mind. And before anyone starts in about Communism, it doesn't work as a system because of human greed and ambition.

Why is it bad to be humble and fearful about unknown consequences when it comes to unethical behavior? If it weren't for religion, it seems like far from the utopia that Marx envisioned, it would be a pit of State-endorsed opression or a chaos of human Id run amok.

This is just one opinion, of course, but there you have it. Take it for what it's worth.

-Eagle 1

"Have you seen what happens when the masses try to worship the Self or the State...?"

Good point.

I've asked you this question, personally, Eagle1, but it bears asking to a wider audience. I agree that worshipping the Self or the State leads to undesirable consequences due to human greed and ambition - your examples are good ones.

That same human greed and ambition leads to undesirable consequences of worshipping a god - consequences like the Crusades, the Inquisition, witch-burnings, and September 11th. All the result of "religion" being twisted by people for their own ends.

So - I agree worshipping the Self is bad. I agree, worshipping the State is bad. I further think that worshipping a god is bad. In fact, I think "worshipping" *anything* is bad.

So here's the question - why "worship" anything?

[interjection here: the definition of "worship" is "to show profound devotion and respect to; adore or venerate" or "to be devoted to and full of admiration for". Something I can understand doing to your parents, partner or close friends - but why anyone/anything else?]

What is it with some people that they feel the need to worship *something*, and feel the need so strongly that (from my perspective) they have to invent something that they can't see?

If you think God is a fact - why? Endlessly curious about people's answer to this question.

H.

As for my answer a resounding "or" would echo... this being from the fact that we only had three options initially, that in itself constraining opinions. The fact there will always be fiction and that some fiction will be construed as fact is unavoidable (the beloved BBCs Spaghetti tree April fool some years ago a good example of fiction misconstrued as fact by many). My own opinion is that religious texts were just a few stories slapped together while someone tinkered with the TV set theory. I also firmly hold the belief that we are not alone in the vast expanse of space... so when the first off-worlders come to say hi (or invade unflinchingly) will those who believe in gods, call the off-worlders gods or call on their omnipotent being to save them? this must be their question... they want god back, but if (and i emphasise that word) god existed would they recognise the sod anyway? i mean if the only omnipotent being in the world turned out to look like a half eaten pilchard would you worship it? and on top of that if it was omnipotent could it create a rock so heavy that it couldn't then pick it up itself?

I did not say worship yourself, I said believe in yourself and do things to help yourself. To believe in yourself (not worship) makes you a better person and more understanding of other humans. I have met some of these so-called Christians and they can be very nasty people. They don't worry about the state of the world because God is going to give them a new one. That's like slapping God in the face and telling him his creation of the first world was not good enough. Some of them also believe they are in the world but not part of it. The fact is we are. We, and everthing else in the universe, are made of star dust. Plus if an atomic bomb was dropped everything on the planet would be dissolved. Then where would religion and Christianity be? Be happy.

-What does believing in yourself have to do with making you a better person?

-Being in the world but not of it doesn't mean what you think it does. It means doing your best to act out the characteristics of the Christian faith without being pulled into any Biblically immoral behavior.

-I understand that you may not have had a great experience with Christians, but just know that quite a number of us are not like that at all. I don't think I'm nasty or hypocritical, for instance.

Right, time to head home.

-Eagle 1

If you read C.S. Lewis's book, "The Great Divorse" you will see a different view of how some of us believe Hell is choosen. We are not banished to desolation, we freely choose it. Obviously not all Christians feel that way but I do and there are more. I think we all need to believe in something, sometime. My husband likes science better than a religious being. I like science for information, theory etc but it offers no moral guidance. I remember when the medical profession (suposedly they are scientific) said nothing about the potential harm of tobacco. Dams are built to save water to irrigate crops and pesticides were sprayed to get rid of mosquitoes with yellow fever. All turned out to have devastating effects just as religious ideas turn out all wrong sometimes. Still we keep working at fixing the parts we see as mistaken. I see to many young people who have no hope. All they seek is a new thrill or excitement or diversion. When I was a teen we had a purpose. To give back to life what we had been given and more. If science helps someone find that goal it's great as far as I'm concerned.

Being ill with a nervous breakdown and being in hospital for a while came from my not believing in myself. Doctors taught me to believe in myself again. Strangely enough it was an evangelical church and their paranoia that helped put me into hospital. I was different and I asked questions and did not agree with a lot of their beliefs. They did not like that. Now, through the help of the doctors, yes I am starting to believe in myself again. I do believe in God but not the Christian God. The God I believe in is a loving and caring God. Not a God who gives you a will of your own, then toasts you for eternity for using it. He is not judgemental. We are as He created us. I do not believe in Hell or a so called Satan. Religion made a game out of them. This soul is mine and that soul is yours. According to religion Hell is going to be a busy place. For a while I stopped believing in any kind of god.

"For a while I stopped believing in any kind of god."

Why did you start again? Was your belief in yourself not enough? (just curious, and honestly interested in your answer, see post 46 above)

H.

I'm agnostic, so I don't know the answer to the question. Like everyone else in the world if they were honest with themselves

Is it necessary for God to exist?

...Hang on, I'll ask him...

...No...I'm afraid he seems to be being omnipresent somewhere else at the moment...
...Can we get back to you on this one?
*click*

(In the meantime, why doesn't someone from the Pro-God Tendency just answer Hoovooloo's Question?!?)

God is: objective fact. "Since what may be known about God is plain to them [men], because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:19,20.

Eh?

"God is: objective fact."

I think you may have a rather different definition of "objective fact" than most of the rest of the English-speaking world. Or possibly a different definition of "God". Could be either. Care to elaborate? Honestly interested by what you mean by that.

The quote you supply is objective proof of the fact that some guy wrote those words down once and they've been preserved and translated since then. It's objective proof of nothing else.

""Since what may be known about God is plain to them [men], because God has made it plain to them."

So far the only thing God has made plain to *me* is that he doesn't exist. (This is a joke)

"For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen"

Sorry, say that again? "God's invisible qualities...have been clearly seen"? Er... if the qualities are invisible, that means you can't see them. If you can see them clearly, that means they aren't invisible. Not a complicated concept, really.

"being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:19,20."

Men are without excuse, because they can *clearly* SEE the invisible. This was written by a guy nearly two thousand years ago, and that is the reason you think God's existence is an objective fact? Baffled.

H.

All religions agree on some issues but disagree on others. most of them suggest things we know cannot be right.

eg. christianity - the garden of eden/creation story doesnt seem to explain dinosaurs.

i think all the religions suggest that something made the world to see what happened, and that we should all be nice to each other, because we have nothing to lose by doing this and there are bribes eg. heaven.

i have read the bible, torah and koran. i have also read parts of the guru granth sahib and the book of the dead.

xaero

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Doesn't "God" flow thru all of us equally? No matter how one chooses to worship or not . Western Religions were born out of Zoroastrianism. This is what the Ancient Greek Aristocracy feared more than anything from the Persians was monotheism. It took the power of god and gave it to the masses. Of the three western religions mentioned above the word of christ is the only one that speaks of non violence. I don't believe you will find anything in the word of christ that justifies the use of violence in any shape or form. Christ did not seek power or control. Gandhi told Churchill that this is what he used to get independence from the UK. The Crowns own belief system. Strangely the major eastern religions Hinduism and Buddhism and there belief system were brought there by the Aryan. The chinese and communism go well together because of confucianism.

The violence in the world is not from god but from man. There are religious leaders around the world teaching hatred and violence in the name of god. The justification for teaching this to childern is purely baseless. The terrorism in the world is born from these teachings.

TheMelvin:

"I don't believe you will find anything in the word of christ that justifies the use of violence in any shape or form."

Matthew, Ch 18, v8: "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.!

Matthew again, 10:21 "And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death."

Matthew again, 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Matthew 15:4 "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."

All from just the one Gospel. All of these you could use, if you wished, to justify maiming, fratricide, infanticide, war and killing of unruly children. But then again, Jesus had odd ideas about a lot of things.

"Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes" : Luke, 10:21. In other words, "thank you God, for making sure that only really naive and stupid people get my message". I'm flattered by this verse - I must be "wise and prudent", eh?

You also said: "The violence in the world is not from god but from man." Right on. Except the excuse given for a lot of the violence - is god. Is that perhaps the real reason people worship a god? To justify their violence or indifference to others?

H.

H.