h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

a good point raised there. But?. Does that mean if i were a satanist but was not very good at it I would automaticaly be sent to heaven by Lucifer. Where upon God would forgive me as he says he will to all those who have fallen?. Therefore I could enjoy all the goodies the world as to offer me bestowed upon me by the dark one, yet still reserving a place in heaven.

I see...late at night brings out the freaks and ghouls, the mad bad, and dangerous to know. Missed everyone actually being online again.
Toxx- "cause of death-unknown" works? "There was this big bang and, y'know, all the lights went on and there was like this big.. did I say 'bang' already? this,just....like...this y'know...Universe kind of messing about" I will admit lacks a certain elegance. Allow me to ponder, and read Mr Impenetrable the Math Thing...we will talk further.

This is the thing...I believe people when they say they have experienced god...I just think god can be explained through science as personally my experience of 'god' is that it is as mentioned before all that is and will be and has been in the universe. I don't think he is a 'He' or 'She' or has intent at all...but then again I think all consiousness may have a self made purpose, to discover itself and the universe, and as consiousness appeared, so the nature of God (the universe) must have changed too (what with it containing consiousness)and therefore sort of must have intent as all consiousness has intent. We are God and so is everything that isn't us too...and so god is real, god just isn't personal for god is bigger than that...is this not what prophets and leaders of all religeons have been saying for years?! they say god is inconcievable...and that is why god can't be a personal entity...for that is entirely concievable...In order to explain this spirit (used not to describe something tangible but in the same way we use the word spirit about 'the spirit of goodwill' etc)we have personalised it a bit throughout human history...I truly believe the authors of all the holy books were trying to explain this same thing but tried to communicate this idea in different ways...some try and put the whole of the universe into one 'god' and others use several gods to represent different parts of the whole of existence.
Science does admit there are some things we can't explain...yet...such as telepathic, or near death experiences etc...but quantum physics is comming closer to explanations all the time...God can be real and present and working in everything around and beyond our intuitive comprehension as well as in our very conciousness but still not be supernatural and independent of our universe....Is that not how all religions define 'him'?

on a less complex note...say there is a real God who has some kind of personaility and such things as forgiveness etc...who made us (more literally than the 'God' I believe in)...WHY DO WE HAVE TO WORSHIP HIM?!?!? Is it me? where does the reason for the worship come in? It used to be about appeasing, and then we realised it didn't alter much...so what is it about? surely thanks is enough?

< God can be real and present and working in everything around and beyond our intuitive comprehension as well as in our very conciousness but still not be supernatural and independent of our universe....Is that not how all religions define 'him'? >

Well.....no! Theistic religions, at least, define Him as creator of the universe. Can't see how you could create something you're already part of! Dagnammit, you wouldn't exist until it did!

okay...but apart from that...

Not quite, Nogg. That'll be the description taken as a whole. I guess the key bit is 'being separate from the universe'. So nothing in the universe is required for the existence of God. That includes causation, but as you say, we've run that one up the flagpole b4.

OK then Nogg. Why is the universe that particular age? We can most sensibly date it by counting backwards as in the BC/BCE system. The reason is that God willed it to exist as and when it became. OK I'll take a leaf out of the objectors' book and say that it had to start sometime. No problem with that.

Gentlemen, I am awake at the witching hour-deal me a hand

Noggin. Key extract of kalam here. Given that the universe isn't infinitely old, it can't have had a physical cause. That's because the cause would ultimately be infinitely old. But a cause has its effect as soon as it comes into existence! Therefore the universe would be infinitely old also.

God however is a personal cause. He can decide from His status outside time the exact nature of the time and space He creates. Elementary metaphysics my dear Noggin!

The problem Toox I think is the "WE"-if you are on the spaceship moving at light speed doesn't the speed seem relative to what we're doing? Isn't time a close relative of speed? wouldn't speed operate differently if it were before 'time' as a concept could be real? IS THERE BEER???????(still can't get the hang of pictures that say stuff -despite help)So where are we?

Go on then, rainy. Dispute my recent posts!

Looks at hand-detects faint wobbling- tries again -one 'o' two x's -set the controls for the heart of the Sun- Toxx.

all is well

Time, speed and space itself had to be created. As for the smileys you should have put 'smiley' not 'smile' in the pointy brackets. You could also use : then a )

Quite a cocky position to take for one operating without a sefety-net Toxx old chum(I mean, new acquaintance but I think i will try the pathetic card), you approach the question from a very mathematical root: it can be that we do not understand th origins but still, quite reasonably dispute the content, where you, by any chance, potty trained at gunpoint? For God's (what was I thinking) let me think!!

Well rainy, ol' buddy; I am arguing from the fact that there is something, whatever it might be. Content doesn't matter. Just the fact that there IS content cries out for explanation!

actual connection-see reply-scared off (meddling kids for sure).

Opens Beer-puts Monk CD on -tries to think, like properly...

Toxx- "content" is user friendly, stuff happens, try looking at it as operationally defined and it gets a bit more esoteric.

I think the word universe was the wrong word. The God i describe and so do all religeons, encompasses everything that exists, will exist and has existed...surely this includes god?!...or else he doesn't exist...

creator, implies intent..I am saying theism (the whole external, creator, intent bit) is a linguistic way of expressing the non theistic god I described, precicely because this is the area where there is no other way of describing the creation of everything when anything that exists has to be part of 'everything'! I suppose the god i describe can be a creator...in the sense that it is a process, (the big bang is the universe..as it creates it)
(evoloution creates life, but it is not external to life)...and thus God creates everything all the time from the big bang to now...
Howzat?

Also, i think strange things happen to time as you get nearer the beginning of the big bang...suffice to say, I don't think the universe literally came into existance 15 billion years ago...time goes all stretched out...we can't explain the very beginning of this process known as the big bang...there is no evidence to suggest that there was a nothing before the universe...thus we do not need soemone to create something...as it already exists!

Pix? what are you studying?i see where you are going with this but you(possibly all of us) have the weight of 5000 postings (so far) to make up

i am just trying get things out of my brain through my fingers so i can get to sleep! I realize there is 5000 postings...it's just i'd like to do an entry but can't be arsed to sit around typing without people to bounce off! so am doing this to make myself write something...and then use it to do an entry,...is that where you saw me going with this? Also, how many of us currently chatting have read all 5000 postings? I think this debate goes round in cycles and if we went back we'd see several other groups of people
going through the same process or similar! If you have read them..let me know if this is true..Am studying biology...but am no snob...all subjects are equal in my head...except maybe paper science..not sure about that one...maybe it is just misunderstood!!

WHY???????? why does it automatically seem fishy tha SOMETHING exists? things exist as the residue of other things-the Universe as we (OK! I) understand it consists very largely of "Dark Matter"- (wish I was jewish-who knew???)

More Beer-mine stronger than yours-go Toxx -go!