h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Just from memory.

Either the universe is infinitely old or it isn't. Probably, it isn't. Arguments for that.

Everything that has a beginning has a cause, or not. Argument for cause.

Either the cause of the universe was personal or it wasn't. Arguments for personal cause.

That's the outline.

Kalam is easily Googled for full details.

Oh, right - cosmological. That's never really made sense to me. No-one ever gives a real reason why the universe can't be infinite.

OK here ya go. If the universe were infinitely old we would never have arrived here. The universe would still be on the path towards now. Secondly, scientific evidence suggests that the universe is about 15 billion yrs old, give or take.

and before that? (i'm an atheist... dont crucify me!!)

If the universe was infinite, concepts such as "old" and "new" would not apply. The passing of time would have no meaning and the universe would not be "on the path towards" anywhere. If time is infinite there are no fixed points anywhere on it - there would be no present, past or future.
Secondly, exactly what "scientific evidence" are you referring to? If you think of the universe purely as matter then I suppose it might be possible to date it but what if matter isn't all there is. What if the universe itself is actually endless empty space, going on literally forever. How could you possibly date that?

You mean this ISN'T A hobby ???????

I'm an agnostic, so no problem. Time started with the universe. God is eternal (ie; outside time) so He was around to start things off including time.

Toxx now you're echoing my posts. !

I guess it all comes down to whether or not you believe time can be infinite - it's impossible to "prove" the existence of God one way or the other.

The scientific evidence suggests that space and matter are inseperable. There's no such thing as empty space. Energy comes into it too.

As to your first sentence, since 'old' and 'new' clearly apply all the time, the universe can't be infinite.

Time started with the universe. Given that the universe is not infinitely old, time had a beginning.

The scientific evidence suggests that space and matter are inseperable. There's no such thing as empty space. Energy comes into it too.

As to your first sentence, since 'old' and 'new' clearly apply all the time, the universe can't be infinite.
There you go again. Would you mind clarifying the term "scientific evidence"? And you still haven't actually given a convincing reason that the universe can't be infinite - you've just found different ways of saying that it can't.

Let's clarify. I'm saying that the universe isn't infinitely old. I'm not talking about size right now. I've said that we couldn't have reached now if it were, and that if we retrace the expanding universe back, the tracks all meet at a point 15 billion years ago. We observe 3 degree K isotropic radiation from that singularity.

Gaffer we actually covered this some finite posts ago, the answers do lie somewhere in the past !
Did you google as suggested ?

This probably isn't the best link
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/mackie.html

But what I'm saying is that if the universe *were* infinite (in terms of time, I mean) we wouldn't be moving through it (again, in terms of time) at all. In an infinite sequence individual points have no meaning - you can't measure the distances between them in the same way you would in a finite sequence of points. Also although we have found evidence that the big bang took place however many billion years ago, there is no evidence that this is the same as the beginning of time being however many years ago - the extremely feasible oscillating universe theory has the universe eternally expanding and contracting - matter exploding out from a point only to be drawn back in and compressed to such a point that the pressure causes it to explode back out again.

You'll find rather a nice summary of the kalam here: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/billramey/kalam.htm

Again the beginning of your post seems to agree that there can't be an actual infinite. There is no scientific evidence for an oscillating universe. Arguably, there couldn't be. So we're stuck with theory accordiing to which you seem to agree with me!

I checked it out and, again, no real explanation is given of exactly why the universe cannot simply be infinite -

"2.1 Argument based on the impossibility of an actual infinite:
2.11 An actual infinite cannot exist.
2.12 An infinite temporal regress of events is an actual infinite.
2.13 Therefore, an infinite temporal regress of events cannot exist.
2.2 Argument based on the impossibility of the formation of an actual infinite by successive addition:
2.21 A collection formed by successive addition cannot be actually infinite.
2.22 The temporal series of past events is a collection formed by successive addition.
2.23 Therefore, the temporal series of past events cannot be actually infinite.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence."

By way of 'proof', this crazy cracker's just found a few different ways of saying "The universe cannot be infinite because it is impossible for something to be infinite". I can't find an actual reason anywhere