h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

There are two possibilities:

1. God does not exist.
2. God exists.

If the first is true, then it does not matter much what any of us believe or what we do with that belief. If God does not exist, then he will not mind whether or not we believe in him. Also, when we die, that's it - no heaven and no hell. So nothing doesn't matters really.

But if he *does* exist, then it *will* matter what you believe and what you do. For if you believe, then it' ok - you get into heaven and everything's great. But if you don't believe, you get sent to hell.

All I ask is for all those athiests and agnostics reading this is to imagine - what if it's all true? What if there really *is* a God and he wants you to know him? What would you do if you died and met by God and he asked you why you didn't believe he was there?

Think about it.

Is this yet another tired rehash of Pascal's wager? *sigh*

Well if you choose to see it as such, then that's up to you. If it bores you, then don't read it.

I can only find out that it's boring *by* reading it. Only then do I realise precious seconds of my life have been wasted.

Alright then, let's try something more interesting:

Why is God necessary?

Discuss.

Ste

I would first ask him, 'Are you the guy in the Bible/Qu'ran/Talmud?' Just to make sure.

Then I would invite him to look at my innermost self and let him decide if the reasons why I didn't believe in him were because
a) I rejected him through selfishness, sinful desire 'n' all that.
b) I gradually built up a picture of how the world worked as I grew up, as honestly as possible, using all the knowledge I gained on the way, and came to the conclusion that He was just a figment of our more ignorant ancestors' imaginations.

If he is the genocidal maniac of the Old Testament, it's hellfire and eternal, brutal torture for me.

If He looks into my soul (of which He can explain the workings if He so wishes while we're there) and decides what I believed was what seemed true according to every mental tool I had at my disposal, then I don't see how He could brutally torture me anyway, being omni-benevolent.

If there's a Santa Claus, will you be getting presents at Christmas if you don't put out a carrot for Rudolph?

Think about it.

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Not a terribly helpful analogy, Pedro7.

Ste, your question implies that God is there because of us and that *we* created *him*, rather than the other way round. You make it sound like you're asking why an electric toothbrush is necessary when a manual one does the job.

Pedro7, you sure you would be able to react so calmly?

Your two reasons for not believing in him are interesting. Do you think that God would say it was ok that you didn't believe inb him because you were taught otherwise and let you get into heaven or something??

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Nope. Probably be bricking it.

I have an honest view of things work, which I think is correct (but can never be absolutely sure). If there is a god, then he'll surely be able to see this. If he is not vindictive, then why would he punish me? After all, it would be *his* evidence I've interpreted (which correlates *much* more with the most powerful investigative tools *he* gave us etc, than religious explanation does).

Hellfire for me, then. It really isn't something I'll lose any sleep over.

"Ste, your question implies that God is there because of us and that *we* created *him*, rather than the other way round."

Yes, that is the most parsimonious explanation, rather than a being so powerful and complex that it can make life, the universe and everything.

There is no reason to start at the assumption that he does exist, other than prevailing cultural biases.

Ste

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In my experience, though, that's what people do as children. It's atheism that has to be taught to children, not theism... as some atheist parents find themselves having to do - even with pre-schoolers, who haven't been subject to any cultural influences.

A most interesting hypothetical imagining could be:

1. All nordic, greek, indian, ect, or just God the only one creator, or so on... exists.

2. Everything is just and it does not matter if we believe or not. Because if we prove there are ghosts we can say we don't really die; if we find the fountain of youth we never die and don't go meet the allmighty;

or...the truth is: we all end, eventually, everything does (, or not, we don't know yet), and we just need to realize we have all this time, all this space around us and just use it the best way you can. Try to lead a life of love for the next and have all the good ways of life; or not, have a bad temper, don't care about you or the others.

In truth we simply don't know. I have choosen to transform the space and time around me in a constructive way, so that the next generation gets more options and ways to develop all the potential they will have.

Or we just should get on with our lifes and not worry to much.

"Don't Panic" He used to say...

This isn't the first time I've seen Pascal's Wager posted as if it were an original thought, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Pascal's Wager is easily discarded as an example of the false dichotomy fallacy. It assumes the only two possible outcomes are no god, or the believer's personal god. There are thousands of gods out there, so believing in your one may be a bigger mistake than believing in none at all. The god of the Hebrews is a jealous god, after all.

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You are incorrect. Children don't believe in Santa because they're genetically predisposed to it, someone has to teach them. The same goes for God. The only difference is, the older kids in school don't tell them that there is no God. After believing for most of their lives, most people lack the personal honesty to admit their beliefs were in error.

Belief in God is an overwhelming majority activity, and this belief has been represented in all aspects of life, so it would be impossible for an atheist parent to quarantine their child from exposure to the concept. A pre-schooler is going to ask about God, and they're going to be very confused when the parent says there isn't one, but everyone else is saying there is.

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Oh, no, I am no. Once a child hits about 13-14, others in her/his school are only to happy to introduce them to the concept of atheism. I my son's case, it was even earlier, 5 or 6, when a boy presented the concept to him with great relish!

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Don't you ever wonder why? Or is it just that you prefer the idea of being in a super-intelligent minority?
<< and this belief has been represented in all aspects of life, so it would be impossible for an atheist parent to quarantine their child from exposure to the concept.>>
I think you'r eprojecting your own experience here. If you came from a more secular country, you'd have found it to be otherwise. Take my own experience - one atheist parent, one agnostic, a society which didn't validate the concept at all, one where the 'epilogue'('God-bothering spot) on TV at the end of the evening was broadcast only in the first two years of television. I was too young to stay up until it was on.
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No. From what I've seen, "everyone else" will be saying "I don't know", "I don't care" or "what, are ya parents religiohs or something?" God talk is strictly forbidden to teachers in NZ schools, and for that reason, discouraged by the teachers if they hear the children discussing the idea.

On Beliefnet, in the atheist section, I saw an interesting anecdote. Posted by a young woman, it was about her brother and sister-in-law, determined to bring up their daughter as an atheist from the start. The child asked, when they were out shopping, what churches were, as they passed them.
"Just a funny kind of store" the mother answered. She didn't want the child knowing that such a concept as church existed, in case she asked what they were for.
That will be one confused child in years to come!

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The rest of us know what anecdotal evidence is worth.

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I despair of the stupidity of mankind.

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What society are you talking about? Would this be the New Zealand where 80% of the population believes in God? I don't know whether to laugh at you or feel pity for you.

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The three people you know don't count.

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I wonder how you have any time to be online with all the mountains you make of molehills. I can sympathise with the mother. Mass self-delusion is a bit of an advanced concept for a four-year old. All the mother did is put off the conversation until the child is old enough to understand. Or would you have her explain sexual lubricants while she's at it?

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Don't you ever wonder why? Or is it just that you prefer the idea of being in a super-intelligent minority?"

As to the why, speaking personally I never wonder, any more than I wonder why betting shops and cigarette companies do a roaring trade. The simple, incontrovertible fact of the matter is that lots and lots of people are very stupid. Many of them delude themselves that they are not - people who bet on horses according to a "system" of their own devising for instance - but their opinion of their intelligence is irrelevant.

And another indisputable fact of life is that, well, life is hard. It's unfair, it's painful for many people, and it comes to a sudden end, sometimes when you're least expecting it. For a species with foreknowledge of this, it might be unbearable. Ultimately, existence is bleak and meaningless. This is not a concept that is comfortable to deal with.

Therefore, a more pertinent question, rather than "why do so many people believe in some kind of God?", would be "Why are a minority of people able to live and thrive without this psychological crutch?".

As for the idea of being in a super-intelligent minority - I for one wish fervently that I wasn't. (Note: no false modesty - my independently measured intelligence level puts me far inside the top percentile.) I wish that the super-intelligent were a majority. I severely doubt, if they were, that there would be the war, poverty, hunger or suffering that there is today. I also doubt there'd be enough people to sweep the streets or flip the burgers. I only wish people who require an imaginary friend/daddy were a small minority of pitied, protected individuals in a society otherwise more mature. But, one of the key characteristics I have noted among people who, like myself, have no truck with superstition, is that they are readily able to deal with the world as it actually IS, rather than pretending it is as they would wish it to be, then getting all indignant when they find, over and over and over again, that they are wrong.

"If you came from a more secular country, you'd have found it to be otherwise."

The UK is a fairly secular country. Like NZ its head of state is also the head of a church. Churches are all over the place. Bishops sit in our legislature. People say "Oh my god" when they see something unbelieveable, "Jesus Christ" when they stub their toe, and "For heaven's sake" when someone says something ridiculous. People look up at the sky and say "Thank you" when something lucky happens. Mentally ill people stand in the street shouting and holding Bibles. People wear crosses round their necks, or St. Christopher medallions. Our literature, language, dress, our entire popular culture are saturated with references to Judeo-Christian imagery.

To suggest it would be easy to isolate one's self or one's child from religious influences in ANY "Western" country is simply to betray a deep, almost incredible ignorance of what culture is really like in those countries, or possibly a desire to deny it for other reasons.

Apart from anything else, what can be most difficult is the attitude of other members of one's own extended family. A friend of mine is a casual rationalist - which is to say he's not particularly anti-religion, per se, he simply regards it as rather pathetic and has doesn't have it in the house. However, he mentioned that he'd become concerned about his five-year old son. After a recent family bereavement, his son told him that it was alright, because Aunty X (his grandmother's sister) wasn't *really* dead. She was alive, in heaven, with wings etc. Nobody really dies, apparently.

The child had been fed this pernicious crap by my friend's mother-in-law - his grandmother. It's a very tricky situation, because on the one hand this elderly and obviously not that bright woman is grieving for the loss of her sister. On the other hand, she's lying to a five year old who knows no better than to believe her. My friend obviously doesn't want to confront his mother-in-law about it, and I for one agree with him (and told him so). But his own son sees his grandmother apparently believing this stuff. What would *you* do?

I've often wondered, similarly, what modern Christian parents do if and when their children come home talking about Islam or Hinduism. Presumably the question doesn't arise, because the majority of Christians who might care about such things would never send their children to a school where there were any of *those* kind of people. That's what faith schools are *for*, isn't it? To prevent awkward questions...

SoRB

"All I ask is for all those athiests and agnostics reading this is to imagine - what if it's all true? What if there really *is* a God and he wants you to know him? What would you do if you died and met by God and he asked you why you didn't believe he was there?



"WHAT IF IT'S ALL TRUE?"

What ALL of it, the Gods of the ancient Mayans, the wights of the druids, the dream time spirits of the Australian tribes

Could it all be true. Well no it couldnt all be true could it ALL the creation myths cant be true and IF they could only one could be true as there is only this world and it cant have been created multiple times by different processes.

If God does want us to know him why leave so much conflicting evidence around, so many oral traditions then a few books edited and disseminated by organisations with a poorly hidden alternative agenda to Gods message as revealed in those books and some of the books contradict each other. Looking at all the descriptions Id have to say Im not sure Id recognise this God fellow if I ever met him. If I wanted people to know me Id make sure that "my brand" was not dilluted by false accounts of what Im like.

God is according to some sources the prime mover before all time energy and matter and he cant sort out his own PR and ensure good brand recognition.

Now if I met God Id leave aside castigating him for his poor profie in the market and Id ask him for a job putting right his promotional techniques. First those "cold callers" lik the JW's would have to go (dont want to give too much of my marketing strategy away incase he can infact "all seeing".

First thing Id ask is "Why didnt you even answer my calls?" Not my prayers and requests just a little "God and everyone at heaven.com apericiates your call. We are currently queueing 80,376,825,631,663,942,138 prayers but will get back to you as soon as one of operaters is available. Thank you for believeing" courtesy call would have done, but nada.

No need for ostentaious signs, didnt need a burning bush or ten commandments carved in stone, just something simple a littel voice inside my head or a picture on a peice of taost.

God if he is there with me all the time, knowing everything and all powerful wont need to ask will he. What he will think is "here's a decent guy who *I* did not lead, Ive been a bad shepard and not kept him in the flock of believers by negelcting to do all those things I pledged to do."

one love

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Where did you get that figure from? The people believing in God is a lot different from the media supporting the concept...

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Childish.