h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I'm glad, azahar, that you have had postive encounters with Christians. I know that many are off-putting.

I've met people who are Bible-bashing, who refer to the King james version as "the real Bible", who think that you can't drink, watch tv, listen to rock music, wear jeans to church or whatever. It's this sort of legalistic, religious behaviour tht turns everyone off.

I know I caused some confusion earlier by saying that Christianity isn't a religion. I just want to try and clear things up. I know I wasn't terribly clear. What I meant was that, unlike other religions, there isn't the same dependance on doing good deeds, praying at certain times of that day, or earning your way into heaven. For a Christian, your place in heaven is assured when you make the decision to become a Christian, not by how good you are, or how much you pray or how many bible verses you can memorise, or anything like that. You do things, not to try to get into heaven, but more because you want to and out of love and respect for God.

Sorry for causing confusion. I hope this is a bit clearer.

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One of the more troubling versions of Christianity, I'd say. It's hardly useful for a moral compass if you're free to be as terrible as you want to be.

I think its one of the nicer ones if executed thoughtfully.

No hard and fast rules just you and your conscience.

I know non-believers who are just as much knee-jerk reactionaries as any dogmatic, "by the book" fundametalists.

For atheists who understand religious motives across humanity we know that people have created gods and that those gods are a way of understanding and moderating ourselves.

You and I are just as much our own god as any religious person is there own god, its just that we accept the universe as phenomenological and accept there is no god out there to guides us. So we take our cues from what is around us just like everyone else believers and non-believers alike.

one love

Sounds a bit like 'Fred-ism' to me, blicky.


az

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But there's nothing there about obeying your conscience, is there? It's just "you can come to Heaven, no matter what." Good works don't matter. One possible interpretation of that is that you can be as awful as you want to be, and god will forgive you. Effectively it's a permission slip for every evil intention.

Will everyone interpret it this way? No. As usual, people will take out of it what they bring into it. People who believe in doing good before encountering this variety of Christianity will continue to do good. But for those looking to do evil, this is the religion for them.

<< It's hardly useful for a moral compass if you're free to be as terrible as you want to be.>>

Yes, but. (You knew there'd be one, didn't you? )

As NPY said, this type of Christianity is all about a relationship with God. That relationship means that the Christian *doesn't want* to be terrible! Perish the thought, in fact.

It does lack clarity, though.

Hey NPY, don't you think that your once-saved-always-saved beliefs contradict the words of Jesus recorded in Matt. 24:13?

(This probably isn't the place for that discussion. You can take it to my personal space if you want to take me up on it.)

TRiG.

I'm nipping in here, TRiG, to answer the question you asked NPY - or rather to attempt to begin to.

I would rather pass the question over to
http://www.heartlight.org/timely_truths/security.html

and http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/eternalsecurity.htm
and
http://www.intouch.org/myintouch/exploring/studies/ESSG_92269.html

I think it comes down to that relationship again... A person can take him/herself out of that relationship, hence Jesus' words, but no oneand nothing else can. (Some people say that not even the person themselves can.)

I suppose, TRiG, this is similar to what others have been saying about becoming a Christian and then doing whatever you want.

There are many people in the world that make a profession or commitment to a particular faith, and then after a while, they fall away. I'm not saying these people will get into heaven just because they made a decision years ago that they later changed their mind on. They could recommit to God before they die. In that case, they have the assurance of heaven.

As Blatherskite said:

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God's not going to say "It's ok, so what if you were evil or did your own thing? You believed in me at a time, so there you go into heaven."

He's going to look at what we did with that belief too. We don't do the good stuff as a ticket into heaven, but what we do on earth isn't something that God ignores. If you say you're a Christian, yet you go out and cheat on your wife, steal from your boss, abuse your kids or whatever, it's kinda contradictory. OK, so no-one's perfect. We're all human and, as such, we all make mistakes and do stupid stuff. But it's the desire to change and serve God that is now within us that is the basis for our actions.

And God helps us to be better people and to change.

Yes, but death-bed confessions (especially in the Catholic Church) result in forgiveness and a 'ticket to heaven'. No matter what atrocities the person might have committed during their lives.


az

To get a better understanding of the way in which God forgives etc could you expand on a few points that you wrote in the post above:



Where does God state his admissions procedure- the Bible, scripture etc? As Az said above as well. For Catholics Deathbed confessions etc are allowed.



Within just Christians or all of us?



How does God help us? What methods does he use to do this?

Thanks

Alf

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That may be your personal interpretation, but keep in mind that there are as many interpretations of the nature of the Christian god as there are Christians.

So what *is* this "deathbed confession"? Is it like the usual Catholic confession of things you've done wrong and having to say a certain number of Hail Marys or whatever?

Confessing sin and wrong-doing isn't what gets you into heaven. Where does it say in the Bible that confession or saying 3 Hail Marys a day will guarantee your salvation?

While the Bible encouraged confession of sin, it doesn't say that this is all you have to do.

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There isn't a specific code or rule that gets you into heaven. Here's a few verses:

Mark 16 v16 - He who has believed and has been baptised shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name

John 3:15-16 - Whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do these verses answer youre question?

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God helps us in many ways. He gives us strength; he heals addictions and illnesses; he tells us where he wants us to go. He helps us in different ways depending on where we are and what his purpose and plan fotr us is.

I know this will probably restart the debate on how God speaks to us and all that, but I just hopew that he speaks to all of you in a way that you will recognise and act on.

How you get into heaven is just one of the many Biblical contradictions, though few have as many verses on each side as the faith vs. works argument: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html

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I'd like to get a little more specific explanation for each of these.

1) How does God give us strength? As an atheist I obtain strength from taking care of my body. I feed it the proper nutrients, give it rest and medical attention when required, and exercise it regularly. If Christians had an additional source of strength, I think I would have noticed that their advantage, but I don't seem to be any stronger or weaker than anyone else of my approximate dimensions living the same sort of lifestyle.

2) He heals addictions? Are addictions like a sore?

3) He heals illnesses? Do you have any documented medical research which proves this? I've seen research which proves faith has a placebo effect at best.

4) He tells us where to go? If that's the case, why are Christians spread out all over? Wouldn't it be easier for him to bring his people all into one place so he could keep an eye on them? They certainly could use some parental supervision.

Also, what communication media does he use? Does he have a website? Does he text your cell phone, or does he prefer to call directly? Have you any recordings?

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Not without penalty, as I understand Catholicism (purgatory?)

Why, azahar, would you prefer it to be otherwise? Do you *want* people to be unforgiven?

A way into heaven isn't secrured by simply praying a quick prayer and going on about your business. Do you, Blatherskite, think you'll get into heaven because you *used to* believe? I'm guessing you'll say no, and I'd agree with you.

Faith and belief are essential to your eternal destiny. They go hand in hand with doing things. You cannot *earn* your way into heaven by being nice to people and giving your money to charity and all that stuff. The doing good stuff comes from what your belief that God saved you.

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There's more in this world than physical strength. I know you'll agrue back with the emotional/psychological crutch argument. All I have to say you can go ahead and believe that. I'd rather have Christ as a psychological crutch than non-existent.

http://www.spiritlifechurch.com/qu_crutch_for_weak.html

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What, like a cut finger? You're smarter than that.

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Ever thought of asking God, that if he's real, he'll show you by healing someone you know in a totally reciognisable way?

There's a team in my church that goes onto the streets healing people who want it. There was one bloke who caouled barely see and his sight returned to him. They had another bloke who was in a wheelchair and was prayed for and then got up and was able to walk around without and assistance. A lady in the church had celiac (if that's how you spell it) and couldn't eat certain foods like bread or it could proove fatal. She got prayed for and was healed. There's no medical cure for such a condition.

If you *really* want to hear *actual* astories of God's healing, please contact my church and they can put you in contact with the appropriate people:
http://www.causewaycoastvineyard.com/contact.asp

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What!?!?! Care to elaborate on that?

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You know you're just being stupid. I think you've already been around for the previous discussions on this.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6504&sid=a26daf6fea366a6ed0a21eca38622e46

He speaks through dreams and visions, the Bible, an audible voice (though rarely), other people, our passions, an inner prompting, and many other ways. It takes uas to be careful to learn to recognise it's him and get confirmation of anything we think he's saying to us.

Try asking him to speak to you.

"Ever thought of asking God, that if he's real, he'll show you by healing someone you know in a totally reciognisable way?"

So, let me get this clear. If I God him to heal someone he will do so in a way that enables me to know God did it?

What would this "totally recognisable way" be, exactly?

Ste

(...if I *ask* God...)

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I have no position on what it takes to get to heaven, because that would mean I have a belief in heaven to begin with.

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Christianity isn't the only source of psychological support, nor is it the best.

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Yep. The results were inconclusive. And several medical studies have failed to yield any support at all to the existence of faith healing. Don't take my word for it, ask a doctor: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/faith.html

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People who believe they talk to god are, among other things, killing abortion doctors and inventing reasons to invade tinpot dictatorships in Islamic countries.

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How do you tell which dreams and visions are god talking to you, and which ones are the result of eating pizza before bedtime? How do you tell which audible voices are god and which are schizophrenia? How do we tell which passions are inspired by god and not just the product of our own biochemistry?

The Bible is a self-contradicting mess, so there's no help there.

Anyway, if God really talks to you, all you have to do is ask him my real name and my home address. Then tell me all about the conversation in a nice letter. I won't be waiting by the mailbox.