h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

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As you know, Blathers, the killing of abortion doctors is much rarer
than you'd like to believe, and the way you phrased your assertion, as if it happens every day, is just libellous. I presume you're talking about Bush, but as I've tried to say and was ignored, the man who was the supposed source of the story about Bush saying God told him to invade Iraq, has said that he was (intentionally?)misquoted. Blame Bush, not God!


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Skeptics Annotated Bible notwithstanding, it's really not, as you know.

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God *could* tell her that, but probably has more important things to do.
You're being as self-important as Hoo often is...

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I never said it was an everyday occurance, so try to read what is there instead of what you imagine is there. And I suggest you look up the definition of libel while you're at it, because you clearly don't understand what the term means.

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The SAB has pages and pages of clearly self-contradicting passages that can easily be referenced and read within their context to verify the interpretations being made... which you summarily dismiss with "it's not, as you know." I know no such thing. The overwhelming body of evidence suggests that I am correct. If you could just give a satisfactory explanation of but one of the contradictions, I would give some credence to your claim. I won't be holding my breath.

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God has better things to do... like talk to you? There isn't enough bandwidth or data storage on this site to contain your ego.

It would seem to me that a god who wants to punish people for failing to believe a bunch of fantastic and unsupported nonsense would be willing to make such a small effort to reach out to his believers, if he wasn't, in fact, sadistically evil. So if god does exist, he's not the guy you think he is.

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I've been discussing just this on another site, as it happens, and the SAB were foolish enough to link to the Wikipedia article on Biblical contradictions, which linked to a Christian site giving better and more knowledgeable explanations than I could. If I can follow that chain, so can you, but I don't think for a moment that you will.

The amusing thing about all these contradictions is that most of them are along the line of 'In 2nd Kings some general had 400 soldiers, in 2 Chronicles it's 4000'. Yeah, really deep and meaningful *transcription errors*!


<< There isn't enough bandwidth or data storage on this site to contain your ego.>>

Childish. You're like a playground bully yelling 'I know you are but what am I'?

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Sure, if someone has a cold, it's a bit implausable to say God healed them. They would've been fine within a few days anyway. But when someone is cured of terminal cancer that doctors are unable to treat, or they's healed of AIDS after being prayed for, do you have another explaination? And if the placebo effect worked for terminal cancer and AIDS, there are millions of people dying for no reason.

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I've never heard of anyone killing abortion doctors, except where Blatherskite says so. And it would be a tad bit hypocritical anyway, as you've said.

And as for the invasions, that's just Bush. How many politicians, military personnel or ordinary members of the public supported him in that because he said God told him to? I'm guesing not many. I'm guessing it was because he's the president and, to a certain extent, what he says goes.

<> (NPY)

Ah, careful that you don't start using the Della Technique™, which includes assuming that because you haven't heard of something that it cannot be true. It turns out it wasn't just Blatherskite saying so . . .


http://www.cnn.com/US/9810/24/doctor.killed.02/

http://www.wcla.org/99-spring/slepian.html
"Dr. Slepian was the fourth doctor and seventh person in this country to be killed “for life.” "

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/9845,gonnerman3,1079,1.html
"Six more murders later, however, extremists can be seen on news and talk shows, wearing suits and ties, explaining that assassination is a credible political tactic"

http://www.looksmartgaytravel.com/p/articles/mi_qa3820/is_199901/ai_n8848154
"Eric Robert Rudolph is charged with the January 1998 bombing of a Birmingham, Ala., clinic that killed a security guard and seriously injured a nurse"



az

"if the placebo effect worked for [...]AIDS, there are millions of people dying for no reason."

Damn right. IF it worked for AIDS.

One example, please?

SoRB

I'm not saying that just because I haven't heard of abortion doctors being killed that it doesn't happen. What I am saying is that it doesn't seem to happen that often. It's not something that makes headlines on a regular basis. Plane crashes, hurricanes, road accidents, racism, terrorism, burglary and many more similar events are making our headlines every day. Where murders are being reported on the news, they are usually out of a different motive.

As for SoRB's question about people with AIDS being cured. I have a friens who was witness to a man in South America being cured of the illness. I'm trying to find a link for you.

Here's a link:

http://www.brucemarchiano.com/testimonies/testimonies2005_3.htm

And in this link, there's a few thinhgs thatmight interest you in terms of hewaling. Look at page 8.

http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/mission/ehaia-pdf/contact-magazine-nr-171-eng.pdf

Ahem... when I said an example of it happening, I meant an example of a *doctor* verifying the initial diagnosis (i.e. that they had AIDS in the first place), and a *doctor* verifying the final diagnosis (i.e. that they don't have AIDS any more)... and, of course, publishing it in a medical journal so that it can be verified by other doctors.

I did not mean an example of a Christian saying "it happened because I said it happened", because, and I'm sorry to point this out, Christians are very, very well known for barefaced LYING about things like this.

So... evidence from a *non* Christian please, because, and as I say I'm sorry, I just don't believe Christians on this. There are plenty of possible places you *could* find that sort of evidence, if it exists. Pubmed, for instance...

Not holding my breath...

SoRB

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az

Hey Im away for a littel bit and....nothing changes

Blathers:
People who believe they talk to god are...inventing reasons to invade tinpot dictatorships in Islamic countries.

Della:
I presume you're talking about Bush, but as I've tried to say and was ignored, the man who was the supposed source of the story about Bush saying God told him to invade Iraq, has said that he was (intentionally?) misquoted. Blame Bush, not God!


The old straw man argument *again*, dont you get tired of that?
The facts are Della we ALL do blame Bush, sorry to prick your little bubble there but not many of us believe there is a bigG to blame have'nt you noticed were mostly atheists

Only a really stupid person would imagine us trying to blame a deity we dont think exists...

What we are saying is not Bush said "God told me"

We are saying and you would be a fool and a liar to argue with it is that Bush does say "I speak with this loving forgiving, generous righteous God" and he still does low down, dirty, lying murdeous things, he is a christian responsible for the unlawful killings of tens of thousands of people. Yet other church going, bible reading christians still say he's a good person, good president and a good christian.

We are not holding anyone or any non existant figures but the christians in the Whitehouse and 10 Downing Street who do these things as as being responsible for the actions of these well known followers of the church and Jesus Christ.





Blathers:
The Bible is a self-contradicting mess, so there's no help there.>>

Della:
Skeptics Annotated Bible notwithstanding, it's really not, as you know.


Fine, Della you just tell us which Bible isnt self contradictiory then and we will use that one OK





Blathers:
People who believe they talk to god are, among other things, killing abortion doctors...


Della:
As you know, Blathers, the killing of abortion doctors is much rarer
than you'd like to believe, and the way you phrased your assertion, as if it happens every day, is just libellous.


STRAW MAN, here again! Ive looked over and over and Blathers post, absolutely no mention of regularity, if Ive missed it please point it out for me as I might not be as smart as you and therefore have overlooked it.

Whereas your counter argument amounts to a man telling his battered wife "Hey, I dont hit you as often as you make out" As if that makes thigs any better.

What a bizzare stance to adopt.





Blathers:
Anyway, if God really talks to you, all you have to do is ask him my real name and my home address. Then tell me all about the conversation in a nice letter. I won't be waiting by the mailbox.>>

Della:
God *could* tell her that, but probably has more important things to do.

You're being as self-important as Hoo often is...



Well fancy that Blathers imagining that his (allegedly) eternal soul is important or that as the fate of millioins of suffereing humans hangs in the balance and this (allegedly) all knowing, seeing and pervading bigG cant find the time to reveal himself to Blathers earn a faithful convert and save Blather's child from being brought up by a staunch skeptic simply by means of contacting his faithful servant NPY. The Almighty just doesnt have the time to pop in on Bush Jr and say "this whole war on terror is a bad idea" and he's got more important things to do that prevent earth quakes, relieve droughts or save children from being sexually molested by his army of preists.

What the feck does he do all day? And you wonder why we dont believe in this all powerful benevolent bigG so many people go on about?

one love

Thanks, blicky. You saved me a lot of time. But just to expound a bit on one of your points:

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According to Della, the Big G doesn't feel I'm important enough to speak to for two minutes, thereby saving myself, my daughter, my wife (she was fervent Christian when I met her... converting her was laughably easy), giving my family newfound peace of mind, and gaining an articulate and outspoken ally in his fight to gain converts. Nor does God have time to bother with bigger things like Bush and Blair, and all the people their armies have killed, injured, and tortured.

God doesn't do any of this, and yet he DOES take time, according to Della, to engage in some mindless nattering with HER! Yet she has the gall to call me self-important? This is a clear-cut case of the pot calling the kettle black... if the kettle was shining copper, and the pot was lying on the bottom of a bubbling tar pit.

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I find it terrifying that you can make such a generalisation. I'm taking a guess that you, or any one of us here, is any more honest or dishomnest than any of the rest of us. Perhaps you mean to say that those you have met who claim to be Christians haven't always been honest about everything? But hey - none of us have been 100% honest all our lives - you included.

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Yes, just because you or I or anyone else says something happened doesn't make it true.

A girl in my church had celiac and was cured. It was verified by a doctor, who was unwilling to do the test because it's medically impossible to be cured, but the test came back clear. Another lady was cured of hepatitis after her mother was cured of either cancer or AIDs.

I know those stories aren't exactly the proof you were looking for. I would encourage you to contact a few churches yourself if you really are interested. I've searched the internet and it seems to be a bit short on websites.

All I know is that healings have and *do* happen and that doctors are verifying what's happening.

NPY,

I think what we're looking for are statistics from rigorous, double-blind clinical studies that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that people can be cured of things in the way you say they are. And not anecdotal evidence.

All the best

Ste

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What a creepy thing to say about your wife! It doesn't seem very loving to me! I am away for a week, and come back to Blicky's shouting of spite, your ego, and some very silly remarks. The point is, God could be, and probably is, trying to reach you, but as *you don't want to be reached* you'd never notice. The fates of your wife and daughter are not my fault - they have their own lives as you do.
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Man, you have tickets in yourself! God needs you for an ally? Maybe one day he'll have you, and who'll be more surprised, you or your family?
<< Nor does God have time to bother with bigger things like Bush and Blair, and all the people their armies have killed, injured, and tortured.>>
God takes the long view, and none of us knows what God may have in mind for Bush'n'Blair.

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Spite. Not worth the answer I could give if I had time.

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Yet you happen to *know* that God takes the long view, Della? How would it be possible for you to know this, or did you leave out IMHO again?


az

"<>

I find it terrifying that you can make such a generalisation."

And I find it amusing that you're surprised.

"I'm taking a guess that you, or any one of us here, is any more honest or dishomnest than any of the rest of us."

I would say I am more honest than average. I happen to know for a fact, for instance, because my boss told me last week, that I got the job I have now because a psychometric test showed that I was more honest than the nearest competing candidate. Strange but true.

But the issue is not *my* honesty, or yours, or, for that matter, many other Christians. It's your, and other Christians, wilful ignorance. Despite my emotive language above, in reality, I do not actually think you or other Christians are being deliberately, guilefully dishonest about medical miracles.

Rather, you're spouting wish-fulfilling nonsense and refusing to accept that you don't have the evidence to back it up. Further, when you're challenged to produce acceptable evidence, you do the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalala" until the nasty people who are cleverer than you go away and stop insulting your imaginary friend. Bless.

"Perhaps you mean to say that those you have met who claim to be Christians haven't always been honest about everything?"

I say what I mean. Christians - ALL of them, in my experience - are fundamentally dishonest about what makes them Christians. Some of them even apparently manage to fool themselves. The problem is, the vast majority of them aren't very good at it.

"But hey - none of us have been 100% honest all our lives - you included."

You got that right. But *I* am not the one claiming that it's possible to cure AIDS by talking to the weather.

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"Yes, just because you or I or anyone else says something happened doesn't make it true."

Hold that thought, then think about what makes you believe the Bible is anything more significant than Homer's Odyssey.

"A girl in my church had celiac and was cured."

Excellent. I'm very happy for her. Please point me to the page on the celiac society website (http://www.coeliac.co.uk/) where this very important news is reported. I'm sure that they'll have covered it, because it's a disease that affects a lot of people and news of a possible cure would be HUGELY important. I look forward to your link.

"It was verified by a doctor, who was unwilling to do the test because it's medically impossible to be cured, but the test came back clear."

Great. Like I say - a link please to this EXTREMELY important news story. (Please make it a link to a NEWS site or a MEDICINE site, not a RELIGION site, for reasons I hope will be obvious).

"Another lady was cured of hepatitis after her mother was cured of either cancer or AIDs."

Again, please do point me to a MEDICAL or NEWS website which report this extremely important, groundbreaking and newsworthy facts. Since you know about them, they must have been reported in the national press, for instance.

"I know those stories aren't exactly the proof you were looking for."

These stories are precisely the proof I'm looking for, in fact - just, as I say, point me towards the MEDICAL JOURNAL website in which the results were reported, and I shall be more than happy to admit I was wrong and you are right.

"I would encourage you to contact a few churches yourself if you really are interested."

What?

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

I'm interested, as I thought I had made clear, in MEDICAL data - clear EVIDENCE (look it up in a dictionary) that prayer or other religious intervention had cured a disease thought incurable. Why on earth would I contact a *church* for medical reports?

If you fell down some stairs and broke your leg, would you call an ambulance or a priest? I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at here.

"I've searched the internet and it seems to be a bit short on websites."



That is the single funniest thing I've heard this week. The internet is a bit short on websites.

Yes.

And the ocean is a bit short on drops of water, the beach is a bit short on grains of sand, and the galaxy is a bit short on stars.

Have you any idea how pathetically desperate you sound? Are you even convincing yourself? Because you're certainly not convincing me.

"All I know is that healings have and *do* happen"

Awww. Bless. I'm sure, NPY, that if you repeat that to yourself often enough, *you* will really, truly believe it's true.

Now... clap your hands if you believe in fairies, children...

SoRB

I'm fascinated by this one, a common cry of Christians:

"God could be, and probably is, trying to reach you, but as *you don't want to be reached* you'd never notice"

Hey Blathers: the creator of the entire universe - a being capable of destroying the entire galaxy with less effort than it takes you to blink - "probably" is "trying" to reach you.

But by sheer will alone, you are able to repel his efforts.

All hail Blathers, who is - according to Della - MORE POWERFUL THAN GOD.



All I can say is, if God is "trying" to reach me, he isn't "trying" very bloody hard. Given, as I say, that he could wink the sun out of existence and back again with less effort than it takes me to clear my throat, and given that he could write "HELLO I EXIST" on the moon in phosphorescent custard quite easily, it's a strange form of "trying" you're talking about.

It strikes me it's the same sort of "trying" I hear about when people say "I've been trying to reach you". Oh yeah? Well I've been sitting at my desk in front of my computer, you have my office phone number, my email address AND my mobile, and none of these things has rung, so precisely HOW have you been "trying" to reach me? Standing in your office a mile away and whispering at the wall? You may be fooling yourself, but you're fooling nobody else...

It always amuses me when Christians talk about God "trying" to do something. I always want to print out the dictionary definition of "omnipotent" onto a piece of two-by-four and hit them in the teeth with it. Or at least try to.

SoRB

NPY:

I can understand your consternation and confusion. I did not mean that christians were lesser people than others with regard to lying, far from it. What I meant was that of the christians I know well I dont know a single christian who doesnt lie. Infact I dont know one that act's in a more moral way (even according to christian norms of maorality and not my own humanist ones) than other peole I know well. Plus we have two State leaders all too willing to trumpet their belief in a christian morality who lie regularly and in the face of firm evidence in a way that costs the lives of thousands upon thousands of people.

What is the point of christanity if it cant even get people to live in a moral way?






So now according to Della the (allegedly) almighty cannot even influence me to believe in him not through his army trained and paid preists, volutary adherents, nor even have blind faith in him through the worlds most widely distributed book.

I, according to Della who claims to know these things, was wrong to say God's not bothered, apparently he is merely *unable* to get me to believe. Simply because I dont want to accept his love.

This seems really odd he is (allegedly) Almighty in fact some people call him *The almighty* but apparently he is not as good as the advertising people who work for addidas who get me to buy three types of rugby boot when if Im honest with you I only really need one pair.

Is that how weak the bigG is?

No ownder Ive never recognised him he's been advertised as something he's not. What I should be loloking for is a feeble God who cant manage to convert someone who is stupid enough to think that keeping a gun in the house is a good idea. Hi Blathers.


one love

Apparently my posting 91 in this thread contains the "shouting of hate".


Can i just apologise to any newbies who might be confused by this, in a little known antipodean dialect "the shouting of hate means" I have no answer for the majority of your points so will defelect any critiscism therein by pretending that you are a bully and make a half baked answer to the one point I can muster an answer for.

..if only there were a specific page to help people cofused by other instances of this dialect cropping up....