h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I see you're American, billy. Although 'the Church' had been founded here long before us Europeans had ever trampled over your nation, colonised it and enforced our views on its indiginous people (or killed them) you still seem to have a much stronger Christian structure built into your society's systems.
I've met many an American online, quite a few fed up with the fundamentalists and those in the 'Bible belt'. Also, from what (and believe me, there's LOADS) US TV I've seen God is also built into many aspects of your life still - without your consent, without many of you acknowledging its' presence. I'd imagine it's also much easier to say you're a Christian (of any sort) and go to church occasionally - because you'd be looked down upon otherwise. [I also know you will prove me wrong - but it's just the impression I'm given by the telly]. In the UK, certainly where I live, people can be really nasty about having any faith at all - but especially Christianity. The government's tolerate-it-all philosophy is a good one, but unfortunatley now it seems that most faiths are either ignored or studied indifferently, 'as is' if ever shown to the public. Not so with Christianity.

Because Christianity has been drilled in to the older generations, and to some extent the older popular culture, there was much resentment built up. And everyone else? Well they couldn't get enough out of pointing out the Churches' (especially Catholic, who tend to be most outspoken and easy to target) mistakes, quirks they couldn't understand, dodgey ministers etc. At the Millenium, THE DATE SET BY JESUS'S (approximate) BIRTH , the British media did not have any mainstream recognition of the fact, so as not to 'upset the other religions'. WHAT?! I'm sure the other large organised religions wouldn't mind another celebrating its own festival. After all, we don't go around debunking the Jewish new year. Or the Chinease. Yet the media (esp. Channel 4, for any of you who know of it) took a cynical approach, playing items such as "the 'REAL' Jesus" ( a thoroughly negetive documentary which I would not object to if it was not the ONLY view of the faith) and ones basically about how cr*p the faith and it's stupid, pascifist close-minded homophobic followers really are.
Yes, I'm getting quite worked up here!
THIS is what I was saying about the Athiests I know. I get on fine with them all - but I often get very frustrated because of the way people refuse to even consider any thought of other people's faith, or their own. I've had many a heated debate (not ones as properly informed as the ones here) with people who make their claims against my core values on the basis of what they saw on TV. On what they read in R.E. (and in Britian's mainstream schools that means unbiased information on all major religions). They see all religions as the same, as simple tradition. They put not thought into the idea that people in the Bible may actually have existed. They say things like "oh, I wonder who wrote the Bible! What was the joke?!" and I say "well, actually, it was written by many people over thousands of years, it's made up of cultural stories, of letters, of poems, of songs, covering hundreds of years of history" and they're just blank. They say "well, why would I want to follow a whole load of rules just 'cos of a book?" and they want to continue to get pissed out of their heads, sleep around etc. They don't realise that most (not just Christian) people's morals are those in the Bible anyway. It makes you ashamed of who you are - briefly - and so makes you even more defensive of your faith.

I have many, many questions about my faith. I have many questions about life in general.
But when I see how closed off many of my friends are, to the other possibilites (as, I'm sure, am I in my own way) their hatred of anything more powerful than them, their petty view of religions as empty tradition and obscure customs, then I look to the attitudes of my Christian friends, and the many famous Christians in history who have NOT been fools, made mistakes and lifted the faith then I see what the results of the faith are. I'm NOT saying that non-Christians are 'bad' - as it would be easy to believe. But the ones I know are so COLD about so many issues, that it makes me... well... mad.

So I hope you see that 'here' Christians are a only a few trying to lean against the wind (whoo! An analogy) of a society who accept anything but don't REALLY tolerate everything. They simply switch sides. If it's 'in' to be Athiest and unnacepting of others faiths (sure, you're allowed to have a faith - as long as you don't go around talking about it) and give other people a hard time if they think any different, if they have different (I could say higher, but that would appear pompus) standards to them, then they will BE 'in'.

And that sentance, my friends, went on far too long.

To summarise a summary: where I live, we are encouraged not to be openly religious, not to say "maybe you SHOULDN'T be doing that" if society decides to accept it, and that it's cool to be Athiest.
I am very annoyed about this. This drives the ascertion in my faith even stronger, which, even though I still have questions about, isn't any less plausible to me than the utterly confusing and frankly downright silly thing known to me as "life". Thankyou, and goodnight.

Take a deep breath, Mr. T, and smile for a minute...

So, you're English. And from what I know of English culture (which is admittedly not a lot), it takes a certain pride in cynicism. The labour party hates the "landed gentry" (or the old nobility), the Tories hate the labour party, the "green" party hates everyone, and the old nobility are indifferent to it all.... I think that perhaps the British took a long look at their own sordid history, and rather than owning up to the bad parts and being proud of the good parts, they did a collective "oops" and sort of decided it was cool to be indifferent to EVERYTHING that they saw as symbolic of their own culture. Including religion. But then, that's an outsiders view. Still, you can see how in a country where monarchs changed the legal religion on a whim, and made other religions punishable, in some cases, by beheading, the people would tend to be a bit leary of organized religion in general.

Here in America, we have our own "PC" crowd who does the same sort of thing. For example, when I worked in banking, we were NOT ALLOWED to say "Merry Christmas" to someone, even if they said it to us first!!! All the public Nativity scenes have been taken down. The idea, I suppose, is not to offend... yet I, as an atheist, LOVE Christmas (and BTW, a festive holiday involving gift-giving somewhere around the Winter Solstice is common to many religions.) And I would not be offended if someone wished me a happy Chanukkah, or a Blessed Ramadan, or whatever the case may be.

I can see your point. But you, in Europe, are exposed to a lot more cultures on a daily basis, I suppose. And in the name of not offending anyone, perhaps we are moving towards a world where we manage to offend nearly everyone....

Look, I respect your religion, as long as you practice what you preach. I've seen many, many intolerant Christians (and you are not one of them). But then, America is, for all the hype, a very intolerant country.

And you have a point about most morality being shared across religious and cultural boundaries. With some notable exceptions.

Like I said, my goal is NOT to rob anyone of their faith. My goal IS to show people that there are other ways of looking at the world that are positive and peaceful and well-informed. I have little respect for anyone who claims to be for or against something without taking the time to learn about it first. For example, much of what is written in the Bible is backed up by Roman historical records; the historical facts are, by and large, without question.

I have met several atheists here on H2G2, as well as in real life. And none of them were "cold". And yes, people who are cold about moral or political issues annoy me, too. For I was raised to always have an opinion, and to always listen to the other guy's; for that is how we all learn.

But let me say one thing, and if you only remember one thing I've ever said, let it be this: Never, ever, EVER let anyone else make you feel ashamed of who you are. Because remember, anyone who sets out to make you feel shame has said nothing about your character, and everything about their own.

Bright Blessings.
bp

I feel your pain, Mr T. I am an atheist where atheism is incredibly uncool, where the cool thing to do is become a famous celebrity, win an award, and stand up at the mike and thank god for it. Then go on to make 30 second commercials telling people about your wonderful, personal relationship with him. Where the leading candidate for the presidency says stuff like this to win votes (paraphrased): "I really don't like atheists, with their arrogance, as if they know everything."

So if I seem to come off a bit harsh at times, it is because I feel every bit as beleagured as you. But I can understand the anger of some of your atheist countrymen, too. Our Christian leaders have power in our society because Christianity is popular, however, no single denomination enjoys enough of a following to make a significant impact on policy. However, some British atheists have pointed out a website to me that details the amount of power the Anglican Church still enjoys in their country. I must admit, I was shocked and dismayed. I'll look up the link and post it here later, for those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about.

On reflection of my previous posting: I don't mean to imply that ALL Athiests I know are like that... just some.

I think that what the whole issue hear boils down to is that in a world where all sides are entitled to their own opinions then they will stand by them. And that's how it should be - opinions should never be opressed.

Wherever there's a majority, the MINority will feel under pressure. Basically, it's probably best just to lighten up and get on with life - however we decide to do it. I'm just glad that we're lucky enough to live in countries which aren't controlled by armies or other powers who will not tolerate any views other than their own, and who obliterate those who stand out. Of course, if you listen to Rage Against the Machine they'd tell you that it's already happening...

P.S. That whole false celebrity "I just wanna thank God for [insert achievement here]" guff here too. Well, actually, it's probably the same material you refer to, but there's not a lot anyone can do about celebrities and their egos.

If I may I'd just like to say a few words about a remark that billypilgrim (who seems to have a knack for sparking off my little preambles) made concerning America. (An apology to all americans present if you were taught all this in school, but living in ye olde market towne of Chesterfield in England I do not know what is on your curriculum!)

Of the men who signed the Declaration of independence on July 4 1778, William Hooper, Franklin Benjamin, Matthew Thornton, William Whipple, John Hancock, Phillip Livingston and Thomas Nelson were all Freemasons. George Washington was sworn into office as the first President of the Republic on April 30 1789 with his hand on the Masonic bible, which the St. John's Lodge, No1, used as the Volume of the Sacred Law. Washington had previously become a Freemason on November 4 1752, made the second degree on March 3 1753 and then made Master Mason on August 4 1753.

To become a freemason, one of the prime requirements is that the applicant should be able to display a belief in god. I use god with a small g because I use god as a generic term. To become a freemason, you must be able to display a belief in god, but which god is your choice. In what seems more like gentlemanly good manners than political correctness, the term used at a lodge meeting is Grand Architect of the Universe - a term steeped in reverence but not in awe, and in keeping with the masons as builders connection.

Based on such a sound principle by such well meaning people, it seems to me unfortunate that America now seems so intolerant. I am sorry if I offend, but until now I have only met and talked to one american in any depth (and that a girl guide I met at Peak '85, when clearly my mind would not have been on the subject of masonic principles!) and have to rely on the english media for news of America and their tolerances. We are left with the impression that only the Christian God should be worshipped, although by which avenue seems to be the one concession to choice.

It would be nice, speaking as one who believes sincerely in a god, if these ideals were the prevalent ones today. It has been said that the land that the Nasoreans knew as La Merica (being, to them, the land under the star of the same name) would be the prototype Masonic civilisation, based on the ideals expounded at Lodge meetings such as brotherly love, tolerance and enlightenment, and I am sure that these would have been the thoughts of the men signing the Declaration of Independence.

The belief in god that Mr. Washington and most of the other founders professed was that of Deism. Their belief was that god, or the Creator (this word ring any bells?), simply created the world, populated it with plants and animals, gave it a spin, and abruptly departed the scene, to amuse himself with other godly pursuits.

That said, there are a slew of quotes from Mr. Franklin, Mr. Washington, and especially Mr. Jefferson that criticise religion. They had a tremendous fear of its influence in government, and acted accordingly. And yet, the Religious Right still manage to swing enough votes to get a president elected.

My sister, who teaches composition to college freshman (for those outside the States, these people would be, on average, about 18) had them read some excerpts from Thomas Jefferson, withough disclosing the source. They all came to the conclusion that it was written by some Communist nutter in recent times.... which goes to show how far right of the Founding Fathers we've managed to swing. (Of course, Jefferson was considered a bit of a leftist in his own time).

The sad fact is, the Declaration of Independence (and later the Constitution) was written by what would be considered the "intelligencia" of the day, and its beliefs were never really embraced by the majority. In fact, the American Revolution was brought about by a MINORITY decision; if I remember my history correctly, a majority wanted to stay under the Crown, but their arm was forced by the actions of the revolutionaries, which in turn caused the King to turn his attentions (and his army) to the colonies.

Anyone who wholeheartedly embraces the ideas of the Declaration of Independence (or even the Constitution, as witnessed by the frightening attacks on the Bill of Rights by those seeking safety from the threat of crime) today is considered a flaming liberal here in the States. Odd, isn't it?

The appearance of Christianity is popular,
true belief is something different.

As concerns animals, while it may be a tradition among some Christians that animals don't go to heaven. But that isn't Christianity. The Bible tells us not to add or subtract from what it says. The Church as a whole is usually alright about not subtracting anything, but oftentimes people like to add things that seem perfectly logical, but may not be true. I don't think that there is anything good here on earth that will not be in heaven, and that is all I am willing to say about it.

Secondly, evil isn't necessarily a human concept. Satan, as a creation of God, attempted to place himself above God, not a "natural" thing for him to do. In fact, if you think about it, most things considered "evil" have probably derived from pride.

One of the things I find most perturbing about humans in general is that all of us(myself included) make too many assumptions. I didn't come to this forum with any opinion in general about atheists or non-christians, I ask questions about whether they have read the bible or that they have certain beliefs because I wanted to know, not because I assumed that they hadn't read or don't have valid beliefs. And yes, I realize that there is a possibility that your beliefs are correct.

I find it interesting what you say about society, because I would say the exact opposite, and say I feel that this is not a "Christian" nation,and that whenever I share my faith with someone I get a certain look. It is a look that seems to say "so, you've been taken in by that nonsense, have you". At least, this is how I find it to be in Arlington. Maybe you don't see Christians that way, but many in my hometown would think I am a fool for what I believe.

The effect it has had on me is this, that it has created the desire in me to hold up every belief I have to the light and see what truth lies within them. This is one of the reasons why I spend so much time in this forum, because I know that meeting people like you and Gargleblaster forces me to do this.

Two last points. I have heard it said that even Jesus doubted because of his words on the cross "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me". Yet there is another explanation. When Jesus died, he took on himself all the sins of the world, and since Jesus is part if the Trinity, for that amount of time that he hung on the cross, the Father (and the Spirit), had to turn away from him. It is not that he doubted but rather a measure of his anguish at the separation from God the Father that he cries out.

The last thing I want to say is that the focal point of Christianity is not Heaven. Heaven is sure to be a glorious place, but if I had to choose between eternal life and Christ, I would choose Christ. Often there is talked of a reward in Heaven waiting for the Christian, but less often is mentioned the joy here on earth. The bible tells me that I should always be ready to share the hope that is within me, it never says that I should tell people about Heaven. I don't tell people about Christ because I want them to go to Heaven, I tell them because I want people to share in the same joy and hope that I have. Joy and hope are meant to be the essence of faith in Christ, and it is sad that some people have boiled it down to Heaven, only one aspect of the hope that I feel.

Regarding society, I would say that what is most "acceptable" is to be casually religious. That is, believe in God, but not follow the tenets of the religion itself. For believe when I say that many people, when I start to express my doubts about the Church, jump right in and say "You're not an ATHEIST, are you?!?!". As if it were akin to being a child molester.

But what I really wanted to say is this: I've come to the conclusion, after spending a lot of time on this forum, that people are basically the same. What most of us want is to be understood and accepted. Most of us want to know that our opinions are respected. Unfortunately, whether as a result of social conditions or human nature, it seems that real communication is becoming rare. People don't really know each other any more, it seems. If they ever did. And because we (as a culture, not we on this forum) don't communicate, we all sometimes think that we are alone in this desire, when we are not. It is also true that people have a need to have their beliefs validated, and have an unfortunate tendency to try to make those who believe differently feel like they don't belong, as a way of making themselves feel ok (which is why both the Atheists and the deeply religious among us would both feel that society doesn't quite accept people like us). And I think that this is the true root of prejudice.

Finally, all of us look for answers to help us get through life. It is the human condition that those things which bring us the most happiness --- love, family, friendships --- also tend to bring us the most sorrow. Which means that to open ourselves up fully to joy means to open ourselves up fully to pain. This seems unfair to many people, and we turn to religion to help give us the answers, to help explain why this is so, to give us hope and comfort and strength, to help us make it through the bad times, and respond to the good times with grace and humility. And so I say (as Shawn did before) that if it helps, then let it be true. Whether you be Christian, or Taoist, Atheist or Agnostic or Humanist, do it if it helps.

There is a theory that we get the afterlife we believe in. And so the Christian would go to heaven, and the Hindu would be reincarnated, and he who thinks we become nothing but dust will become nothing but dust. Interesting thought. Perhaps our minds ARE powerful enough to create the reality in which we believe.

If there is one Truth in the universe, it is that none of us knows for certain.

I will end with a quote from John Lennon: "Imagine all the people, living for today."

It would be a good start.

In the spirit of welcoming and understanding, allow me to present the first community that provides validation for the non-Christians in this forum, the Anti-Christ's Support Network: http://www.h2g2.com/A254314 I thought it was terribly unfair that Christians have central gathering places like H2G2 Christians and churches, so I made my own.

This is not to say Christians won't be welcome to stop by, peruse the brochures, and discuss our beliefs. In fact, I would expect nothing less.

Hmmmm... anti-Christ might be a bit of a strong title for the believers on this discussion. The whole point is to debate from both sides of the fence and I get the feeling you might get a few Marilyn Manson fans in there, telling how they bit the head off a sparrow and slept with their twelve year old cousin.

Maybe if you just called it "Satan's Corner"...

(Forgive me, I stip up a treat)

The key is to believe in Jesus as *your* saviour. You can accept that Jesus died on a cross, even that he died for the sins of the world(including yours), and still not be a Christian. *You* must realize that *you* are a sinner, that Jesus died for *your* sins, and ask him to forgive *you*. Until you have done this, you are not a Christian. If you, Gargleblaster, ever did this, then you are a Christian still. God has forgotten your sins as surely as he has mine, and the holy spirit indwells you still. "And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man be able to pluck them out of my hand." no man, not even yourself, is able to remove from you that which makes you a Christian.

We would make the same choices in the same situations if we were perfect. But it would not negate free will. It just means that we use our free will in the same way. We are not forced to the right choices, but if we were perfect, we would freely choose them.

As for your silly hoops:

A. The doors of heaven were open immediately, and the way to them has always been faith.
B. The message is the same all throughout the Bible. In the Old Testament, the message was that the messiah would come, in the New Testament, that the messiah has come.

I'm incredibly uncomfortable with being labeled a "Christian," because of the company with which I would be included. But again, you say that faith in Jesus as a personal savior makes you Christian, then I say the inverse is true; that complete rejection of the idea of Jesus as some divinity is cause to incur his wrath and eternal damnation. There are plenty of examples of this sort of behavior in the Bible, although, admittedly, most are in the Old Testament, and thus don't refer to J at all.

A) In your own words, there is no way to heaven except through Jesus. Thus, it logically follows that there was NO ay to heaven until Jesus walked the earth.

B) Old Testament: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
New Testament: Turn the other cheek.
Old Testament: You shall not favor a poor man in his lawsuit.
New Testament: Blest are the lowly, they shall inherit the land.
Old Testament: Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death.
New Testament: He who does not hate his mother and father cannot follow me.

This is all I found through a 2 minute cursory, random flip through the pages. I'm certain if I dedicated myself to the task, the list of contradictions would be massive. End statement: the religion of God and the religion of Jesus were two completely seperate entities.

My biggest problem is this whole idea that we're "sinners". Christianity is a religion of guilt: we are born sinners, we die sinners, only by the grace of God to we get anywhere. Do I think any one of us is "perfect"? No. But does that make us "guilty" of something? No.

I don't believe in religion for the same reasons I don't believe in the rash of Twelve Step programs. They all involve admitting you are nothing without God's help. And yet they say we have free will... but we DON'T, because we can't "will" ourselves to be without sin. So our freedom has a limit, and is therefore not true freedom.

Despite my Catholic upbringing, I never really believed that asking God for forgiveness for my less-than-perfect actions really did much of anything. Therefore, it was never a whole-hearted confession. And therefore, I suppose I was never really a Christian.

And I agree with GargleBlaster that the Gods of the Old and New Testament are quite different. But then, I've mentioned that before.

I've just seen a TV programme over here in Britain about both sides of the Irish problem. Yes, religiously motivated. These words, paraphrased, came from a Protestant ex-member of the UVF.

"Two Catholocs had been cornered in an alleyway... one of our lads asked if I had a gun, I said no but I knew where I could get one from"

"They heard it, the two lads, so they tried to make a run for it. One got away but we caught the slower one. I don't want to go into too much detail, but I beat him to death with a brick."

"It was in the Maze prison that I discovered Jesus and opened myself to him. Now the only commander I follow is J.C."

So, this man goes to Heaven. I will not, by the rule of the dogma. I am absolutely sickened by this. I don't want any of the Christians fobbing this off as one isolated incident because EVERY war since the Middle Ages has been fought on the basis of ideology and by far the biggest influence has been religion. Attrocities like this are carried out. World wide. On a daily basis. In the name of a god.

Heaven...? You can keep it. I'll die amongst humane people, I hope (but not pray. Never pray).

This will be my last posting to this forum. I believe everyone knows my opinions and I have tried to voice them without trying to convert anyone.

I disagree with your assumptions on the conflict in Northern Ireland. I've been led to believe that the whole thing is a political disagreement, which happens also to fall across religious lines. The Catholics, being true Irishmen, favor a break from the Commonwealth and union with the rest of the Irish Republic. The Protestants are mainly the descendants of Englishmen and Scots who were purposely moved there by England many long years ago. They favor a continuance of their relationship with the Commonwealth. It's more based on heritage than religion. The unfortunate result of religion getting mixed up in the relationship is that hatred and intolerance are magnified, with the observable result.

And I say to you once again, that because of the process on God's side of things, you cannot lose the promise of eternal life. It is true that you only have to make the decision to accept Christ. However, God has promised us this "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more". From the point of decision onward, for all intents and purposes you have sin. Not because of anything you did, but because of one who considered you worth dying for.

In my own words, I also said that by faith Abraham(from Genesis) entered into the kingdom because his faith was counted for righteousness. In my own words, Job(from the OT) believed in Jesus as demonstrated by his statement "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:" Job 19:25. In my own words, God promised a deliverer directly following the sin of Adam. Something I haven't said yet, but that billypilgrim has mentioned before. John begins his gospel with the statement that the Word(Jesus) was from the beginning, and involved in the creation, and everthing else (John 1:1).

Concerning "an eye for an eye". Jesus was correcting a misinterpretation that had embedded itself in the Judaic culture. "an eye for an eye" when originally spoken, indicated an attitude that the things of others were just as important as your own possessions. So it was a logical clarification for Jesus to make when he says "love thy neighbor as thyself" Matthew 5:43.

For the other difficulties you mention I'd have to get specific references. Sometimes finding specific statements in the Bible is difficult, especially when you paraphrase them.

They aren't paraphrases, they're direct quotes, with the sole example of the "he who does not hate his mother and father..." thing. That one appears in the Bible in slightly mitigated tones, and appears as I have written it in the gnostic Gospel of Thomas, which predates all the NT Gospels, and has avoided tampering by the Bible's editors, so I find it more reliable. However, it was a random flip through the Bible, and would take me quite some time to relocate the quotes. I know it sounds like a cop-out, so what I will do instead is make another flip through, this time documenting locations. Will that do?

As far as that "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" thing, I don't see how it could have been misunderstood, as it is written in rather plain language. It seems to be a rather simple, strong law to deter violent crime, which was a common trait of Middle-Eastern civilizations. See Hammurabi's code (the oldest known code of laws) for parallels. Incidentally, the rigid structure of classes supported by that "Do not favor a poor man in his lawsuit" thing also has deep parallels with Hammurabi.

Hi. Just wanted to let you know I'm a Christian, minister, missionary...