h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Personally I can say that even a "true" Christian could have been involved in the burnings mentioned earlier. The only man I know of who was incapable of such an action is Jesus Christ himself. You can't put your trust in men, no matter how good or holy they claim to be, because they'll always let you down. I put my full trust only in God. It is truly unfortunate, and I am grieved that so much that is evil has been done in the name of religiom. However, I am heartened by the fact that nothing evil can truly be done in the name of Christ, for there is more to a name than letters, and there was more to Christ than flesh and blood.

Interesting you say this because I have always heard claims that such practices were done " in the name of Christ" and wars and atrosities performed and condoned because " God is on our side". Even more recent than the incidents mentioned by billypilgrim are the stories coming to light re orphans from Britain being shipped off to OZ etc in the second world war - barely 60 years ago and being abused by priests and nuns- the very people that are the "holders of the faith".
True you say you can trust no man - no matter how holy they proclaim to be.
The thing I find most interesting in the Christian concepts is the need that was perceived to rever Christ as a "Son of God" most other religions such as Islam, Buddhists,etc are quite happy to consider the principles and the tennents to be the core and the people expounding them as the Prophets speaking the message.Then there was no questions re whether theirs was a virgin birth etc...the focus sometimes appears to be wrong.Prehaps if there was more focus on living the principles as opposed to deitifying the principle characters it would be easier for people to more closely identify with Christ as a person [ or persons depending on whether you consider he was one or maybe a summation of a number of individuals ] and see his priciples and manner of living as being achievable.

If Christ was not fully God and fully man (one man), then all the principles, tenets, and morals of the world are worthless (some of them are anyway). He is the way, the truth, and the life, no man can come to the father except by him.

Yes - but that's my problem with the whole concept.The question i once posed was " If JC forgives all sins then why can't he forgive the sin of not believing in him ? " Answer given - 'cos you don't get something for nothing. Hmmm this seems very human concept.
The whole issue of mutually exclusivity is the one that has breed so much of the very evil that you deplore.
actually the Buddhists have a point in that Buddha showed " a way" but at least their concepts can live and let live. JC also showed a way of getting to a point so to speak but Christianity insists on it being the only way and the true way and then seeks to destroy all others. If it is such a fantastically good and only way why can't they consider themselves truely lucky or whatever and just let the rest alone ! It seems the concepts are very insecure if they need to be bolstered by doing a downer on everyone else's beliefs.

Because they think not "spreading the word" goes against "love thy neighbour" - considering themselves lucky might register as gluttony too!

Look at it this way. When Adam ate the fruit, sin entered the world. At that point, man, the creation, forsakes the creator and turns away from him. God makes at that point the promise that one day he will send a deliver. In the meantime faith in God is taken for righteousness. Then the deliverer, Jesus Christ, comes and pays the penalty for all sin. It is not a sin to disbelieve in Jesus, it is merely a choice to forsake God as Adam did (It's a fair conjecture that Adam repented of his mistake). God created a way for mankind to come back in to fellowship with him, the way being to trust in the forgiveness of Jesus, and once again a clear path exists to God. Unfortunately, man exists in a sinful condition and no choice at all amounts to the same thing as a choice against God.

I don't know exactly what you mean about Christianity seeking to destroy all other faiths perhaps you could clarify?

The above dogma fails in one respect. If the only way to heaven is through Jesus, why did God wait so long to provide him? Did everyone from the (alleged) beginning of the world in 4000 BC to the beginning of the Christian era go straight to hell? If so, then God did no "so love the world."

I've heard apologists take the ever popular time warp defense (they used this to counter Mithraism, their single biggest embarrassment) and say that, when Jesus dies, he paid their penalty, too. But that still means Adam spent 4000 years in Hell for eating an apple. Adam was the first child, and any parent knows that the quickest way to get a kid to do something is to tell him NOT to do it. Which means that, as a parent, God is an idiot and a failure.

A good question. Some have surmised that people waited in an interim realm until the birth of Christ, at which point they were "visited" by Jesus as well and allowed to make the choice.(sounds kinda kooky, put possible).

A better answer is to be found in the writings of Paul (Romans), who mentions Abraham specifically. Paul says that Abraham's faith in God as demonstrated by his willingness to sacrifice his son, Isaac, was imputed to him for righteousness. Abraham therefore, is in heaven. This applies also to anyone who had a similar faith.

As for Adam, who says God did not intend for him to disobey? I'm sure at the very least that God knew he would.

GargleBlaster, I just read your posting on atheism, and I have to say three cheers for standing by your beliefs, and also for your delightful sense of humor. I myself stopped riding that agnostic fence a few years back. I don't believe there is a "higher power" in the universe, so much as that the universe IS, in and of itself, a "higher power." But not in the sense that it has any real concern for us, one way or the other. And I agree that the atheists -I- know all tend to think that life is precious. When you feel like this one's the only chance you get, you tend to try to make the most of it--- and let others make the most of theirs.

ddombrow, it's good to have you back at the forum. You were sorely missed. I feel a bit ill right now (after a long, rather stressful week) and don't have the energy to give proper responses. But I just want to add that, while I (as you know) don't believe what you believe, I have nothing but respect for you, based on what I know so far. For you always listen to other people's postings, never reply with hostility, and seem to be well-versed in your faith. And that would make you one of the few Christians I've met who actually practices the teachings of Christ.

Hear hear. I agree. While I occassionally jump on and question Christian faith I have tremendous respect for those who do practice what they preach and live the principles [ which do occur as themes thru' many religions and faiths ]. The teachings I believe have much sense ....tis just some of the dogma that becomes counter constructive ! So thank you for your couteous replies ddombrow.

Let me add my voice to applaud not only the Christians, but also the non-Christians in this forum, whose concerted efforts toward courtesy have managed to keep this forum an open dialogue, rather than a string of diatribes.

That aside, let me see if I can summarize dd's point. The Almighty God put Adam in a situation where he KNEW he would fail, then threw him out of Eden for it, and inflicted punishments on him and his progeny for all time. Then, Adam dies, and 4000 years worth of people die, and they're placed in a special holding tank (similar to the Catholic idea of Purgatory, which I think even they have abandoned now), to await the son of God, except he's not really the son of God, because he's also God, and something called the Holy Spirit that nobody in history has ever managed to satisfactorily explain. This son of God then has to suffer humiliation and death, at which point everyone is forgiven, and passes are handed out to enter Heaven for the first time in history. And no matter how truly despicable you are, no matter how truly awful a person you manage to be, all you have to do is believe that an almighty creator of heaven and earth had to muck about through all this rigamarole to allow you into his presence, you get to join him when you die. But fail to make that step of blind faith, and no matter how truly wonderful a human being you are, you are doomed to the pits of hell. Did I miss anything?

I did seek to emphasize the second explanation more than the first. The first theory is mostly speculation anyway, and also not my own theory, which makes it difficult for me to defend.

For one thing let me say the first sin definitely was not all God's doing, remember the involvement of the serpent. Also, the analogy you used, that the easiest way to get a child to do something is to tell him not to do it. That fact is a product of Adam's sin, not the cause of it. Since Adam hadn't sinned yet, humanity didn't have the sinful nature that is behind that reverse psychology (I would have said that before but I just thought of it). All that establishes is that God wasn't wholly responsible for Adam's sin. Since God knows everything, it's obvious he knew Adam would sin. Still the question is to be answered, why did God allow it to happen. On this point, I can only speculate. But when you look at the Bible, one thing is certain, that God wants us to be perfect. It is clear that God has a plan for humanity. Here's how I would explain it (this kinda speculative, too, but with more actual support from the Bible).

First of all, Adam's sin. Generally regarded as bad (and pretty much was), but produced one thing of note, free will. Humanity since Adam has been allowed the full reign of its own free will. Anyone exercising this free will could also choose to come back and follow God, most didn't, but it was possible. This is the first step in God's plan. Then, Jesus Christ comes, dies on the cross, rises again and goes back to heaven. The path back to God is still the same (faith), but with an important difference, The Holy Spirit. Jesus had told his disciples that his time would be short on the earth but that a comforter would come after him. The Holy Spirit is the comforter that Jesus speaks of, who came to the disciples on the day of Pentecost. The Spirit indwells any who have accepted the forgiveness that Jesus freely gives. I can share two important things about the Spirit. One, that it restores the fellowship with God that was lost when Adam sinned. Two, the Bible says the the Spirit is a seal upon our soul that shall not be opened until the day of Christ's return. The effect of all this is that the person in question has two natures, the old nature, which is sinful, and the new nature, which is of God. The new nature is the result of God's work in your life and the means by which he will bring you to perfection. "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" Phillipians 1:6 (had it memorized so I thought I'd use it). The last step in the plan is that when life here on earth is ended, a perfect, glorified body will be given to those who have had that good work begun in them (minus the old nature), and finally be perfect, as Jesus is. This does not mean that Christians are infallible here on earth, on the contrary, as long as the old nature exists within us it is constantly provoking us to sin. However, if someone says they are a Christian and has had no change in their life, then I would have to question whether they really were or not. The Holy Spirit protects us from the inevitability of sin, yet we can still sin by choice.

Something to note. When I speak of faith I speak of a belief in all three persons of the Trinity. Even the old testament scholars believed in Jesus, as Job demonstrates in his statement "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:" Job 19:25

I'm with Ddombrow.
God made Adam. God gave Adam all that he needed - including free will. It was up to Adam to excercise it any way he wanted. He had everything he could want (at the time - obviously before the invention of widescreen tellies), but yet rebelled against God's warning.
Did God know about Adam's inevitable sin? I'd say yes. If God had prevented it, then Adam would not have had free will at that time. So why put the tree there in the first place? I don't know. What is certain is that, (sorry if I'm just reiterating 'brow) although we 'fell' (i.e. we will all act against God/ourselves/others because of our nature) God had already planned to save us - once again excersising (poor spelling) free will. It is up to us to choose our own way all the time, or to choose to follow Christ. The choice is up to the individual. People complain about being told by Evangelists etc. that they need 'saving' - but I know many Athiests who simply refuse to give it any thought whatsoever. Christians are not trying to force (or SHOULDN'T, anyway) anyone to do or believe anything... just give them the information, and an oppertunity.
Once again I'm afraid I've answered no-ones' points properly, waffled a lot and not said anything new. But hey, I'm tired and confused.

P.S. "But fail to make that step of blind faith, and no matter how truly wonderful a human being you are, you are doomed to the pits of hell." said GargleBlaster.
I don't know any -truly- wonderful human beings. If there were such a thing, surely they wouldn't need saving or be 'doomed to hell'. Only Jesus was truly great. And I wouldn't say it's a step of entirely blind faith - a step of faith, maybe, but anyone who makes decisions totally blindly is a fool. (Not that I'm saying that ACTUAL BLIND PEOPLE are fools... er... not that they'd be reading this anyway. Erm... bye!).

First of all, m'dear Mr T, you shouldn't feel the need to apologize for yourself by saying you're "wafflin" or answering "no-one's points properly." You speak quite clearly and, even if I don't agree with you, make a certain amount of sense. So don't be afraid to be proud of your beliefs, or your knowledge!!

Secondly, most "atheists" in the Western world were born and raised as Christians, and moved away from it because it doesn't work for them. I am sure you didn't mean to offend, but if I were the type who was easily offended (and I'm not, by the way) at your insinuation that many atheists refuse to give it any thought whatsoever might just offend me. Because I spent years--- not weeks, not months, but years and years---- agonizing over my faith. I was raised Catholic, y'see, so I was raised from the time I was born to believe that NOT believing would doom me to hell (or at least keep me out of heaven). Letting go of that safety net and finally admitting to myself that I did not believe any of it (except that Jesus was a wise philospher, but simply a man) was a huge leap for me indeed. Do not for a second think that I take any of this lightly, for I realize what an important part of life faith is.

Putting aside for a moment the appalling lack of Christian actions in the history of Christianity (Spanish Inquisition? Holocaust? Genocide of the Native Americans? Carried out by Christians, all of it....), I will say, finally, that the idea that God is, by definition, all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful, and therefore free himself to choose his own "personality", but then saying that God CHOOSES to be petty and jealous (as demonstrated by the Old Testament), and also chooses to make damn sure that all his children KNOW that they are flawed, know that they are born with sin, know that no matter what they do in this world, no matter how good they try to be, they cannot save themselves, and therefore played on them the biggest guilt-trip in the history of parenthood--- well, all this does not hold up to logical argument.

Imagine, if you will, a parent who sits around and tells a child he is basically bad, tells a child he was born bad, tells a child that nothing he could do in this life is good enough to please the parent--- and then says "but if you just trust in me, you'll be ok." And I will show you a parent who has put a child on a path to despair, a parent who has raised a child who is likely to look for others to persecute, just to be able to say to himself "Well, I may be full of sin, but at least I'm better than THEM, the ones who don't believe....". I will show you a child who never fully feels good about any of the good things he DOES accomplish, a child who is raised to feel guilty about his very nature.

Yet that is, in a nutshell, what God has said to his children. For somenone who is all-wise, he sure would make a bad parent. And history has shown, unfortunately, that telling people they are sinful from the word "go" has created an awful lot of screwed-up people.

I always seem to have questions and very little in the way of answers... but that's the way of the world, I guess. My question is; there have been religions before Christianity... indeed, there are religions other than Christianity now. How do we know that it's the true religion...? How sure are we that, two millennia from now, society will look back at various systems of belief that exist now and say "ah, but they must have realised that theirs wasn't the true Supreme Ruler" (or futuristic words to that effect).

If it IS the only (and therefore, the last) religion, why did God invent all those other religions that seemed to work so much better...? Gaiaism is a lot better for the Earth than the idea of claiming a nation in the name of King and Country, so you can strip-mine it. The teachings of Mohammed don't have the kind of continuity errors that the Bible has ("hang on... it said an eye for an eye earlier in the story but now it says we have to give someone our coat if they take our shirt... but why should we give to these people because you shouldn't steal or covet anything that anyone else owns...?", said the man that read the Bible as closely as he was told to, the day before he died in an iron maiden). Why are we told to watch the stuff that was hastily picked up off the holistic cutting room floor when other societies on Earth have been watching a perfectly good "director's cut" for centuries...?

I'm a fine one to talk, though... I have an idea of how things are and it means I'll listen more intently to people that share similar points of view.

Have you ever considered that Christianity might not be a religion at all?

First of all, let me reinforce billypilgrim's point about Atheism. Every Atheist I've ever known was a recovering Christian. The Atheist's problem is not NOT thinking about spiritual matters; if anything the fault is thinking too much. I find quite frequently that I know the Bible better than the people I debate, who usually prefer to be spoon-fed their religion. The easy road, the popular road is to go along with the herd and stay religious. My family still gives me grief over my beliefs, but they know better than to try to sway me, or they respect me enough not to try.

Secondly, if God did create Adam, he made him imperfect. God cannot possibly expect Adam to be perfect, if he deliberately made him flawed (and we would have to assume it was deliberate, if we are basing our arguments on an infallible creature). Then he deliberately put him in a situation where he would fail, and punished him harshly for it. And you say this created free will? I would say he had it already, or he wouldn't have gotten into trouble in the first place.

As for the stuff I outlined about an almighty power needing to go through a bunch of silly hoops just to open his own front door, I still haven't seen that addressed. I'm sure I could come up with a less ridiculous tale, but I'm certain you wouldn't believe it.

No offense, but if you were ever a Christian, then you still are. Curiousity forces me to ask how many of those "recovering" Christians were Catholic.

You're right about Adam, the sin wouldn't have created free will. I probably went over that part too fast. Adam would have had free will at the time of creation. However, Adam had no real chance to exercise that will until he was faced with the choice to eat the fruit or not. Yet he probably never even thought about disobeying until the serpent suggested it(through Eve).

Really the "flaw"(if you want to call it that) that Adam had was the free will itself. For with it comes the possibility of making choices. Unfortunately Adam made the wrong one.

as for the "silly hoops" you haven't seen addressed, could you point me to it? Sometimes I'm a bit dense about the points other people are making.

No offense taken, if that's what you believe. But if belief in Jesus as your god and saviour is what it takes to be Christian, than a complete repudiation of that should be all it takes to change it. Incidentally, I was raised as a Catholic, but as I became disenchanted with that, I experimented with other denominations. I've been to Baptist (both Southern and other), Lutheran, Presbyterian, and even Seventh Day Adventist churches. These experiences only heightened my dissatisfaction with Christianity. Anyone who is wondering about the validity of Christianity should shop around like this.

So God wants us to be perfect, yet he gave us free will? If we were all perfect, then we'd all make perfect decisions...wouldn't it follow that we'd all make the same decisions, and thus nullify free will?

All right, a reiteration of the "silly hoops": You say God intended for all this to happen all along, from Adam down to Jesus. He had to keep 4000 year's worth (unless you're open to the idea that Genesis is bunk, and that the world is clearly older than 4000 years. Only extreme fundamentalists still cling to the 4000 BC theory) of people shoved in a special holding tank, telling them "You'll get to Heaven, don't worry. But I've got to go kill my son first." Wouldn't it have been easier to:

A. Throw open the doors immediately
B. Get the message right the first time, when he had a chance to talk directly to Abraham, Israel, David, Moses, et al, rather than getting it all screwed up, and needing Jesus to fix it for him later.

The more you examine this stuff, the less logical it becomes.

The whole idea of Satan (in the form of the serpent) encouraging Adam to sin does not hold up to philisophical argument. The idea that there must be evil to counteract good (as dark counterparts light, sad counterparts happy, etc) is a very human idea. We live in a finite world, where we define things in terms of what they are NOT, in other words, in terms of opposites. However, God is infinite, is by definition without boundaries, and therefore needs no evil to counteract his infinite goodness. Yet evil exists (according to Western religions; other faiths would have it there is no "evil". Is a fox "evil" because it will, according to its nature, kill every hen in the henhouse for the fun of it? No. "Evil" is a human concept).

Let me tell you what may sound like the oddest thing. Christianity teaches that humans, unique among God's creations, are the only ones in possession of a soul. Yet when I was a girl, I looked into the eyes of my dog, and knew that whatever spark made me more than the chemical sum of my parts existed also in my dog. And any God that did not see fit to let animals into Heaven (as they had no souls) was no God for me.

But anyway, I want to say one thing. Something has been troubling me, and I know what it is. Ddombrow, you are, apparently, a good person, a thoughtful and caring and intelligent person (and so is Mr.T, and so are the others who posted here. I am addressing ddombrow specifically because he seems to be the most devoutly religious of anyone here). And if I knew you in real life, we would most likely be friends. And so I realize that, if I had the ability to show you beyond a shadow of a doubt that God as you know him DIDN'T exist, I wouldn't do it. Because to rob a man of his faith, without first giving him something to fall back on, is a very cruel thing. And I am not a cruel person.

I believe as passionately as you do that my way is the right way. But it took me years of questioning and soul-searching to reach the belief system I have now, and the choice was mine to make. No one set out to disillusion me. No one set out to take the idea of Heaven away from me. I did it on my own. And while I am happy and content going through a universe that has no God, you might not be.

I suppose that all I could ask for, all I would hope, is that you come away from this forum with a different opinion of non-Christians. That you realize that many of us are (fairly) well-versed in the Bible, that we are good people with beliefs of our own, who mainly practice the ancient pre-Christian edict of "Do no harm". And maybe, just maybe, you will acknowledge that the possiblity exists that we are right, and the Bible was written by a group of well-intentioned men (and maybe some women, using pseudonyms) just like you and I. For even Christ on the cross had moments of doubt.

I would not rob you of your faith if I had that power (and I don't). But maybe the next time you meet someone who says they are an atheist, or a Wiccan, or a Hindu, or a Shitoist, you will acknowledge them for the good and even spiritual people they may be. And that, even more importantly, you will do one better than your predecessors, and when the day comes (and it WILL come again, as history has painfully shown) when all the good Christians want to lock up the horrid non-believers (why do you think that during WWII the Japanese-Americans were put in concentration camps, and the German-Americans were not? The Japanese didn't believe what's on the dollar bill. They didn't trust in "god"), you will stand up for us non-believers, and point out that Jesus never said to persecute anyone.

And maybe, too, you will realize that for those of us who don't believe in your God, we are reminded daily that we are "different", that we are not living up to society's expectations of us. For God is mentioned on all our money, he is spoken of in Presidential speeches and in the newspapers as if all of this fine country's citizens believed. When in fact a growing number of them do not.

"In God We Trust". Yet not all of us do.... This country was founded on an idea of religious tolerance that has never fully been realized. So remember that, if sometimes we sound a bit hostile, it is because everywhere, every day, we are told that we are expected to believe, and very few people give thought to those of us who don't, except to feel sorry for those who have "lost the way."

But some of us have found a different way.