h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"Actually Rhodesia took it on itself through Ian Smith - it wasn't the way that the handover was planned."

I agree. It was Ian Smith and his little cabal of racists who decided to seize control of the country and mess things up; Britain actually tried to stop them. There is a case to be made that Wilson's failure to invade and depose and arrest Smith in the 1960s (Smith was actually guilty of treason) lead to the current situation because it allowed Mugabe to rise as a resistance leader and eventually become President on the back of that.

"Mugabe has a lot of tribal support, but if he loses the army........"

What is the situation with the army? Mugabe isn't stupid, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have staffed it with Zanu-PF loyalists.

Forgive me for being a bit backwardbut, since Mugabe sorted out the landowners I reckon its up to the citizens to rise up.

They have risen before, against the Brits and behind Mugabe. That was good for its time. In this instance the oppressor is a fellow countryman. The army must back the public.

Too often they just follow the chain of command.

Cuba, may not be the best example, but it took a very long time to go Castroite.

Bad news, the Chinese cargo ship with the arms has switched off it's tracking signal and gone missing. Speculation it's gone to Mozambique.

Zuma in London for Zimbabwe talks

The leader of South Africa's governing ANC, Jacob Zuma, is in London for talks with UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown expected to centre on Zimbabwe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7362156.stm

Checking the independent: the ANC's Mbeki/ Zuma power struggle has led to Mbeki backing Mugabe. Zuma, the elected ANC president and probable next in line for the SA presidency, is backing democracy. Not openly backing the MDC has criticised last weekend's statement by Thabo Mbeki that there is no crisis in Zimbabwe.

Zuma said:

"It's not helping the Zimbabwean people who have gone out to electt the party they want to exercise their constitutional right."

The only gutsy criticism made by a non-Zimbabwean politician so far.

Mbeki apparently acknowledged the innaccuracy of his previous statement with Mugabe after this happenned.

"When you're in the dumps
Don't be silly chumps
Just purse your lips and whistle thats the thing
AND"

From what I can gather, the Zimbabwean government is pushing for a "government of national unity" with (surprise) Mugabe remaining President. This might save the MDC from further presecution and hopefully end the violence in the country but would doubtless be as far from either justice or democracy as ever.

Two months on, all very different and all very bleak.

Something that surprises me is the way the media suggest that there is no effective sanction to give Mbeki and SADC some backbone.

Surely there is one, in the form of the 2010 World Cup. The rest of the world needn't sacrifice the tournament. It could be enough to nominate a fallback venue, and to send the clear message that it'll be used unless Zimbabwe's neighbours go in and make sure than an election takes place without intimidation.

The cojoneless mob in charge of football wouldn't dare do that, it might upset someone.

The UK has spurned the opportunity to the cricket world cup as an opportunity to make a statement against the regime.

The EU has allowed Mugabwe to come and use them as a platform to project his lies over and again.

Though in the end the players did so themselves. Good props to Nasser....

<< The EU has allowed Mugabwe to come and use them as a platform to project his lies over and again.>>

Perhaps not such a bad thing, since he condemns himself out of his own mouth?

Novo

He condemns himself to us, but in Africa he uses it to portray himself as the black hero - invited to Whitey's meetings and standing against the lies they spread about black people.

The situation is changing fast and we are entering into the Definite War On The Cards Stage (DWTCS).

At the DWTCS many politicians around the world will condemdn and espouse various anti-Mugabeisms and Mandela has thrown his hat in the ring a lot later than Jacob Zuma did. The labour govt (the queen) have stripped Sir Bobby of his title and theres just war famine and death on cards in Zimbabwe.

If FIFA did anything it would not change the situation unless South Africa HAVE the force and international backing to go in and remove Mugabe.

Then there is the question of soverignty that Mugabe will wield.

The depth of the corruption in Mugabe's regime IS so rotten he has to be removed by external force.

Who will provide that force?

Neighbours must ally themselves with fleeing Zimbabwean refugees and build deep contacts in the country.

This is going to be horrific.

I reckon Mugabe is just the monkey for the organ grinders which he created to support his regime in the first place. He is now just a foaming mouthpiece for his cronies in the army and police. ZanuPF is the tool he uses to suppport the ruling clique.

My belief is that South Africa holds the key to the removal of the whole cadre. They simply need to switch of the electricity, seal the border. Stop trade entering or leaving via the road and rail links, and it will implode.

Perhaps that's just a hope !

Novo

Zimbabwe's Army

They must be some tough Mercenaries

>I reckon Mugabe is just the monkey for the organ grinders which he created to support his regime in the first place. He is now just a foaming mouthpiece for his cronies in the army and police. ZanuPF is the tool he uses to suppport the ruling clique.

I'm not sure. Usually if a dictator relies on internal support to remain in power then they're likely to be overthrown once the country goes into meltdown and their backers look for someone better. Zimbabwe is suffering enormous hyperinflation (about 15 billion Zimbabwean dollars to a US dollar at the moment) but Mugabe is still firmly in power. Mugabe seems to rely on the police and the army to protect his regime but I think their support comes from loyalty rather than self-interest.

I'm not sure how he can be overthrown. The (admittedly, slightly pie-in-the-sky) attempt to overthrow him constitutionally has failed; internal revolt was unlikely months ago and near-impossible now (the intimidation and violence against opposition supporters is, according to the BBC's John Simpson, the worst he's seen in all his years of reporting); an external invasion tends to beg the question "where from?" It would have to be an African neighbour and the only country with the military clout, South Africa, looks nervous about getting involved possibily because Zanu-PF were seen as allies to the ANC during the 1970s and 1980s.

Now we've had a UN declaration of the illegality of the election prevented by South Africa.

That makes it a no brainer for me. The rest of the world should relocate the World Cup to somewhere deserving, and give South Africa a clear message that their adherence to a craven appeaser in Mbeki is more than 'unfortunate'.

Agreed.

If sanctions happen and Mbeki is removed that may never happen.

There are 2 years to the world cup but a campaign to have it moved should only start after the South African elections.

If Mbeki maintains power we see what his agenda is.