h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

For someone who is white, not poor, and from a good school it is getting harder and harder to get into a good University, as they are looking for more people from ethnic backgrounds, more people from deprived backgrounds, and people from inner-city comprehensive schools. Surely the way to stop descrimination is to remove all the 'race' and 'background' boxes from forms, so they have no idea what your race or social background is, and they can't possibly discriminate?

"For someone who is white, not poor, and from a good school it is getting harder and harder to get into a good University..."

Unfortunately for us white middle class folk, that's what happens when you get rid of inequality - the people who were previously benefiting from the inequality lose out. But don't worry - us white middle class folk from fee paying schools still fill disproportionately many places at university so we're still on top!

But seriously, from an article I was reading recently (from the US and not directly related to universities, but apposite nonetheless):

"And finally, a recent study found that when resumes of equally-qualified job applicants are sent to employers, those with white sounding names are fifty percent more likely to get called in for an interview than those with black-sounding names. So who's getting preference?"

I think that the term "descrimination" is starting to bite itself in the butt; I understand the point-of-view of the well-off white boy who can't get into school because they're looking for "diversity", and the few African Americans who still blame white society for every single problem that they ever encounter. Yes, whites did descriminate against, humiliate, insult, and denounce the African Americans for centuries, yes that was extremely wrong and immoral of us as a whole, and we're realizing that now that the white man's rights are actually being violated in order to protect "political corectness". Descrimination is wrong, in any form. Whether to give an advantage to one, or to take away the advantage from another, it is wrong; equal rights among all humanity. What is so hard to understand about that? I don't understand inequality. I don't understand what can make someone so different as to actually deserve less than someone else. It doesn't make sense. We're humans. That's it. I don't get it. We've let political corectness and descrimination get the better of our society, and it's going around in a vicious never-ending cycle. I think it has to stop.

Darth Zaphod

Okay, maybe I phrased it wrong, I mean if you have a poor black kid from an inner city comp, and a rich white kid from a good school, and they are both as clever as each other, the poor black kid is more likely to get a place at University. I just think they shouldn't ask questions about race etc so it's not possible for them to discriminate either way.

Also, and this will probably sound very elitist, I don't see the point of trying to get 50% of people into university. Degrees are going to end up meaningless, and all the jobs for people without degrees are going to find there is nobody to take them, cos who wants to work for 3 years to get a degree, and then be a binman?

"Surely the way to stop descrimination is to remove all the 'race' and 'background' boxes from forms, so they have no idea what your race or social background is, and they can't possibly discriminate?"

Actually although you fill these boxes in when applying to university the university doesn't recieve these details until the start of the academic year (ie after all decisions have been made). The boxes are a form of monitoring things after the event not a way to make it easier for admissions tutors to positively discriminate.

It's also worth noting that the financial incentive to recruit certain students has no relation to colour, background or religion - it's decided by looking at every postcode in the UK and choosing the 5% which have the lowest participation rates in HE. Universities aren't told which postcodes are eligable (only HEFCE the funding body knows), some universities try to guess based on past experience but the postcodes eligable change every year so this is a bit pointless.

It's not just universities that have those 'race' boxes though, nearly every form you fill in these days does.

True but on almost every form (or at least on most application forms) that section is separate or detachable and is not used in the decision making process, these things are usually just a way of monitoring recruitment to make sure things are fair for everyone. Plus ethnicity information is almost always optional - you can refuse to disclose it with no repurcussions.

But it shouldn't be 'fair' - what's wrong with having a university full of one race, if those people are the cleverest and best for the university? It's been proved that different races are better at different things, for example most 100m sprinters are black because they're the best at it, so how can you expect universities and work places etc to have a 'fair' proportion of all ethnic backgrounds? Expecting everyone to be the same is another form of discrimination.

Ethnicity information wasn't optional when I applied for a job in local government. They wanted everything and went on to say that they realised that some groups are under-represented in their workforce and are working to redress the balance. Which presumably means that white males need not apply and I'm still as unemployed as ever.

You do know that on Applications if its for College, University or
Jobs! You do not have to put your race on for this reason, but the place in which you are applying for, will still act oddly with you and at the end of the day nobody can do anything about it! I hate discrimination! Why dont you contact the PM and ask whats going with Univerisities and why are they acting in this dreadful manner with yourself?
All you can do is try!

"You do know that on Applications if its for College, University or
Jobs! You do not have to put your race on for this reason, but the place in which you are applying for, will still act oddly with you"

Umm..no - they wont. As I said before universities don't get this information with the application form - we get at the end of september after results/clearing/confirmation - ie after all the decisions have been made. You are not legally required to provide the information and if you don't we just get a return of unknown or n/a.

With most jobs the equal ops form is removed by HR and placed on file, then decisions are made based on the app form itself...the equal ops information is *never* used in relation to individuals, however if a manager was accused of racism the HR dept might pull the equal ops forms of all the applicants and see if the manager was discriminating at interview (or before interview on the basis of names). These forms are a tool to prevent discrimination and to recognise it when it occurs - not to make it easier for managers/interviewers to fill quotas...because they don't have access to them when making decisions.

The hip hop culture here in the States is very very bad. Many blacks cannot or willnot speak anything close to passable english. You sure as hell don't want someone answering the phone at the office and saying, "what up g? sheeeeit mufu. got-dam!" Therefore when you see the name "lakeesha" or "shaniqua" or "lamareeka" or "waneeka" you say to yourself - no way.

"Okay, maybe I phrased it wrong, I mean if you have a poor black kid from an inner city comp, and a rich white kid from a good school, and they are both as clever as each other, the poor black kid is more likely to get a place at University."

Do you mean equally clever or equally good exam results? If they're equally clever then it's quite likely that the rich white kid from the good school will get the place because they'll have got better exam marks (it's much easier to do well at a good school). If you mean equal exam marks, then there are probably a few universities (by far the minority) that will discriminate in favour of poor black kid from the inner city comp. But given that he or she has had a bigger challenge to get those same marks, they probably deserve it more.

"Degrees are going to end up meaningless, and all the jobs for people without degrees are going to find there is nobody to take them, cos who wants to work for 3 years to get a degree, and then be a binman?"

And the upshot of this is that to persuade people to be binmen you'd have to pay them more which is a positive outcome. People ought to get paid more for unpleasant jobs. Well, at least that's in principle - in practice it will take a lot more than getting 50% of people to university to achieve this.

I understand what you are saying! But how many times do you know of that 'White' people get into College/University due to grades etc, I dont think so!! If you are
any other race than white you get treated alot better than you do if you are white!
Life is not as simple as you are making out, if it was we would not be discusing this subject-would we?

I'm sorry Angel but you're wrong. I work day in day out with these figures.

In 1999 (the most recent yr for which I can grab data quickly) 77% of all UK applicants were white.
Of the students accepted onto a university course 78% were white - white students are more likely to get a place at university.

No university in the UK has an admissions policy which positively discriminates in favour of any ethnicity (apart from a lingering preferential treatment of white applicants).

The only university that recognises that getting straight Bs from an inner city comp is a sign of more promise than getting straight Bs from a private school where the average grade is an A is Bristol...and it bases it's decisions on applicants performance against the average for their school - nothing to do with ethnicity, religion or anything else...in fact I's be willing to bet that Bristol has exactly the same %age of white students now as it did before it started it's new policy, it's just they are increasing their state school intake.

Bristol have started doing this not because it gets them more money (it doesn't - supporting students from non-private schools costs universities bucket loads of cash) but because they did a pilot study and found that the students who did well for their schools were better students (at university level) than those who just happened to have good grades.

There is no financial incentive to recruiting students who aren't white, there are no quota's in place (there are benchmarks but they are to prevent discrimination not to encourage positive discrimination and there are no financial penalties for not meeting the benchmarks). Universities exist to teach students and to research, the people who work in universities are on the whole accepting non-judgmental people who only discriminate on academic ability/potential.

"If you are any other race than white you get treated alot better than you do if you are white!"

Depends on where you live. Here in foreign-hostile Denmark, most of our immigrants are from Turkey and the Arabic countries, and they'd really wish you were right. Most of them are denied entrance to discos and the like. Most of them can't get any but the most menial jobs, regardless of education, and it was only last year that an immigrant earned a Ph.d. in this country.

The Danish People's Party is for morons, but unfortunately, we have a lot of those in Denmark. Anything presented as if it cuts into their welfare sends them screaming into xenophobic caveman-mode.

Well your all making really good points, but it's not only races that is included in discrimination, among other things it could be gender. I am completely for equal rights and no discrimination but I think the women's lib is going to far. It seems as though some ( but definitly not all) women want to take it a bit to far. I mean, if a woman got a "man's job" (by that I mean one that was traditionaly a males job) it is not a big deal. But just a little while ago there was a story on the news about how a man had and worked in a daycare. They made a big fuss(not necessarily negative but none the less) over it because it was a common job for a women. Yeesh! anyway that's my

Yes I understand what you are saying!

But why is the UK such a sexist country. The UK comments on the way we live, how we eat and probably how we make love!!
There is nothing wrong with a man getting a job working with children, one of mates works in a
creche and they are male! Would
you have a problem if you went for a job and the place was dominated by the opposite gender!

"Equal rights doesn't mean special rights"

I don't see any big campaigns to get more male nurses, or more men into any women-dominated profession. Wouldn't you expect this if people truly tried to achieve equality?

I'm sorry Pencil Queen, just because you work with these certain statistics does not neccesarily mean you are correct!
If there was apparently 77% white, why is the Government making such a huge effort on taking more ethnic people into universities etc, if we were so brilliant as you make out the Government bodies for the Universities would not have to make a bold statement like this.....Would they?