A Conversation for Mormonism - A Question and Answer Session

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 61

Researcher 192341

Everything in this reply is already in the public domain, already chronicaled in historic fact/books/documents. But you are correct, we should not discuss anything that is sacred about the temple.

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 62

Meis Geghra

These people only want to attack The Church, if The Church were hidden from their knowledge they would no doubt attack another faith. Let these cunning foxes fight amongst themselves.

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 63

Researcher 192341

We should not cast Pearls before swine and the individuals who are just antagonists will not be educated or changed.

However any right-minded person who has either been mis-informed or just mis-understands the LDS Church, but is seeking for Truth may find some clarification in some of the answers.

In other words it is for the wider audience than the peeping wizards.

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 64

Pyrex Muse of Unbreakable Space-age Wonder Glass, Student of Life, Keeper of the Seven Keys of Ventuslor

Why all the secrecy? If it wasnt wrong why would they need to lay a net out for us to pull us in, a proper following is exactly that, a person learning the ways of The Lord Jesus Christ.

smiley - hsifsmiley - smileysmiley - fish

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 65

Researcher 192341

Isa. 28: 10
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

It is not a matter of secrecy it is a matter of what is sacred.

You do not do a master's degeree in Maths before mastering addition & subtraction, then division & multiplication, then differentiation & integration ....

If you go straight to differentiation & integration you will not understand it, and will distort what is true.

So it is also with Spiritual things.

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 66

Mark R. Cordell

Thank you for correcting my fantasy (I'm not a critic, by the way), but I'm not entirely sure what I got wrong, all you seem to be doing in the post is clarifying what I said!

I won't make any comment on this next issue so I won't be accused of bias, but wasn't there some sort of Egyptian funerary scroll that Smith claimed to be the writing of Abraham? I could be wrong feel free to correct.

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 67

Mark R. Cordell

Meis I am genuinely interested in the LDS church, which has a fascinating story. I have my doubts which I express, but I listen to your arguments, I'm open to another viewpoint. I mean I have my doubts about most things never mind the LDS church! I'm certainly not out to attack the church, just to ask questions. If you don't like the questions fair enough, but they aren't meant to be destructive.

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 68

Mark R. Cordell

But is it really true you need to learn simpler spiritual things first? Do matters of the Temple require intense study and knowledge? Perhaps. Surely jesus brought his message to the uneducated masses, he taught by word of mouth? Is it necessary to have a graded system of "spiritual" learning? I don't know.

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 69

Researcher 192341

As well as the "Line upon line, Precept upon precept " way that we learn and progress spititually there is also the fact that temples are dedicated to the Lord and should not be defiled.

To go to the temple a member of the Church has to be worthy. That is he or she has to be living in obedience to the commandments of the Lord as recognised by the Church - basically be morally clean, live the Word of Wisdom (do not defile you body with drugs, tobacco, alcahol) pay tithing, etc etc.

Such worthiness is asceratined through interviews with Church Leaders, to go to the temple when not living worthily will defilt it.

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 70

Researcher 192341

You are correct again. The translation of the scrolls is found in the Book of Abraham, which is found in the Pearl of Great Price.

You can access this by clicking on 'The Scriptures' in the left hand margin of the Homepage when visiting the Church website: www.lds.org

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 71

Researcher 213485

I think i'd like to add a point or two to the black thing.
First of all I'd like to say it wasn't just dark skinned people who had the curse of cain (its official name) it was anyone who was a decendent of cain that had the curse. that means they could be white too (or any other color inbetween). the thing was they were mostly black since it was sort of cain's mark. What many people don't know though is that they were blessed with great wisdom as well. I was reading something off the net just the other day that talked bout this. turns out the Lord blesses and curses different groups of people all the time. It just depends from case to case how long a curse will last. (blessings usually last as long as the majority of people are good). another thing people don't know is that the thing with negroes/any other desendents of Cain were lesser souls in the last life was never official doctrine, it was just a theory that seemed practical and many desided it was probably truth as well. Sort of like evolution. mentally and physically the church (as a whole) believed that blacks were just as great and sometimes even better than whites and vise versa. It was very against racial discrimination and racial violence. in fact I have a list of qoutes from the church and church leaders about this. I also found on some sites that Joeseph Smith was actually a big time advocate for black people's rights and believed they not only should be freed but given the same rights and educational benefits as the white person. To me this speaks volumes upon itself.
the last thing i'd like to state before ending is that I am mormon and mixed (as in bi-racial, as in half black and half white). I am very against racial discrimination/slurs/violence. and i hope most the US population will agree on that. At first i began to worry that The Church before 1978 and maybe even after - when i read up on certain sites - was racist until i began to research it. individually people back then, in The Church, probably were more racist than they are now only because of the common public belief of the United States for the longest time. just as they were probably activists in The Church as well.

Luvs to all,

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 72

Pyrex Muse of Unbreakable Space-age Wonder Glass, Student of Life, Keeper of the Seven Keys of Ventuslor

"Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved and thy house."
Says nothing about smoking or drinking pepsi...

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 73

Researcher 192341

That's because they weren't invented then. The scripture however say plenty about your bodyy being a temple and warn you not to defile it, or else the Holy Ghost cannot dwell in you.

Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost? 1 Cor. 6: 18-19. Be thou an example in purity, 1 Tim. 4: 12. No unclean thing can dwell with God, 1 Ne. 10: 21.

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 74


What amuses me is how each person of "religion" (Mormon, Baptist, Catholic or other) when faced with fact, and most importantly, Logic will fall back on "Gods Plan" and thier ignorance of it!

How can you so whole heartedly place your faith in anything without all the facts. If you do so, you are less than a man. You ARE exactly what the Mormons think of Negros! You are less than a man!

Use your brain for something besides a counterweight for the rest of your body. Think!

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 75

Researcher 192341

Man says : "Seeing is believing"

God says : "Believing is seeing"

The whole point of faith is defined thus :

Heb. 11: 1
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Beside which, if you notice what year it is (2004) we actually measure our time form the birth of Christ. Of course he lived then.

I, and many other people who rely on faith, as opposed to logic and proof, witness miracles regularly which strengthen our faith.

Similarly signs follow those that believe, but to those that say they will only believe when they are given a sign, no sign shall be given.

Faith precedes the miracle (or evidence)

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 76


You are correct... I do believe and I do see...

I see so many atrocities have been committed in the name of God that it is impossible to logically believe in something or someone that will allow such things to come to pass.
In biblical times when sins were committed these sinners were summarily dealt with by your God. Were they so much closer to God then? So much closer that they(the victims) were able to ask and recieve justice from your God in such a speedy fashion!
I suppose that the bible said so... so it must be true. baa!

Now I ask you... Where is your God! Where is he when he allows famine and war in Africa? Oh I'm sorry those in Africa are of negro descent(or as the mormons still secretly teach and believe, descendants of Cain) so they don't count... Right?!?

Where is your God when wars are fought and nations of people are displaced. Where is your God when people fly planes into buildings in his name and governments wage vengeful war in response? Then justify their actions by saying that God is on our side! I suppose since the Jews killed Jesus that they deserved what happened to them.

I suppose it all comes down to the "FACT" that if a person believes something... No amount of "Proof", "Fact" or even "Logic" will displace that belief.

That is why wars and atrocities occur! They occur because people believe they are "right and just" and people will perish on this earth as a result of their beliefs. Not because God said so but because you lot "believe" he did!

God was invented by Man to explain the unexplainable. God was invented to get people to follow the rules of the person in charge. To prevent the poor and meek from rising up against the leaders. To prevent those same down-trodden peoples from aspiring to attain wealth or comfort. To get those same peoples to accept that it is holy and saintly to suffer while the peolpe in charge and the churches take the wealth and live in stark contrast to the people that are following like sheep! Those people refuse to see that the double standard that they see every day is unjust but they don't question it because they are told it is only the "law of God" in action? Does your God truly advocate such a double standard? Does your God truly teach that you should suffer and give your wealth to others so that they may be comfortable while they pass judgement on you?

God was that invisible father figure that knows when you sin. He can even invade your mind so don't even think of sinning... God is your dad and he knows "even when you think of sin" The powers that be, in this case religion, have you at every turn.

Whoever came up with the concept of controlling people not only in there actions but in their thoughts as well... and subsequently invented God and Religion was a bl**dy genius.

I suppose since science has not answered every question (yet) that there is still a place in this world for your myths and mysticism.

Carry on... Believe your purveyors of faith and mysticism. That is your right as a human and I respect that. But allow me the same courtesy to "not" believe as I see fit!

In conclusion I say this;
Where is your compassion? Where is your Humanity? Where is your desire to do what is right and just for mankind? Instead of blindly following a 2000 year old dead guy that has a good story, why don't you use your own brain and break free from your conditioned and indoctrinated life.

I do not think that your God is what YOU think he is! Or what you have been conditioned to accept!

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 77

Researcher 192341

Firstly I have not been conditioned to accept anything about God.
If you look at my post on in answer to you posting on the other thread you started you will see that I came into the Church aged 26 with no conditioning or indoctrination, but of my own free will and volition.

Secondly God allowed wars, contentions and displacements in ancient times, just as much as now, and famines and plagues litter the old testament, so wher you get that justice is quickly and summarily dispensed by that God I do not know.

Basically the answer to your question is free agency - man's choice. I choose to follow Jesus Christ I am not forced to and certainly do not do so blindly.

As an ex-mormon you will know that we are taught that man was free to follow God's plan and come to Earth to live. Free agency is an essential principle. Lucifers alternative plan was to deny mankind his agency to ensure that everyone is "saved". When his plan was rejected he rebelled. There was a war an he and his followeers were cast out. Since then he has tempted mankind to lead us astray.

So we are here and we make choices.

After this life we must account for those choices. The perpetrators of evil get their just deserts even if they somehow escape in this life.

As for what the Church and religion has done for me - well when I joined the Church I had lost everything - my home, my friends, my business.By following this religion which you say oppresses me and takes my wealth, I am married now married with two children, have a lovely house with a beautiful garden that my children play in, and have a flourishing business.....

While you questioned the principles you were being taught as a young man in the Church, such as tithing, chastity, word of wisdom... did you actually try living them?

The proof of the pudding, as they say my friend, is in the eating of it!

You are free to choose to beleive or not to believe, but it was you who came to this discussion board, so you must expect that people will relate their experiences, which may differ somewhat from yours.

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 78


Correct... I did come to this discussion. I came for a lively debate and that, so far, is what I am getting. I thank you for that.
Of course I expect people to have a differing opinion... that is what makes life interesting.
I am truly not trying to change yours or anyone elses opinion I am meerly having a discussion, lively as it may be, it is just a discussion and an opportunity to rant about a few, of what I see as, inconsistencies in the world of religion and faith.

As for me trying to live the way I have been taught... You assume that because i am no longer a member that i did not live the teachings of the gospel. I did so for many years and yes I have been through the temple in Salt Lake City.
But in all that time there were nagging inconsistencies that did not allow me to completely embrace the religion... and the hierarchy is just one of the many inconsistencies.

I will not discuss the inconsistencies encountered while performing temple ordanances and I will not ask you to betray your ordanances by discussing or defending them.

I am not here to make enemies, I am here to have a discussion.
I respect your point of view as much as I respect my own.
I certainly will not personally attack you, So I apologize if you felt I was directing my rant at you, solely.

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 79

Researcher 192341

Thank you for saying that.

I do understand what you mean about unanswered questions but for me they fade into insignificance compared to what I have learned and experienced.

Sorry to bear testimony, but waht I am saying is that I know certain principles work - tithing, Word of wisdom, exercising faith, praying and receiving answers. I have exercised the priesthood in a blessing that saved my wife and my unborn baby's lives (She was going to have an emergency cesarian because of a failing liver at about 27 weeks into pregnancy - after the blessing her liver condition stabilised and improved, much to the doctor's bewilderment, and she finally delivered at 34 weeks)

Prior to my joining the Church I reached out to god in desperate serach for both help and for the Truth. When I had nowhere to go and was going there He sent the Missionaries to teach me and since then my life has been rebuilt on a "firm foundation".

I have received all these answers and gained my own testimony of these principles. In comparison I see other things as trifling or distracting.

As I say, apologies for the "testimony" but as you can see it is my own very real experience.

Technical, doctrinal questions I will aslo have a go at answering if there is anything specific you want to discuss here, and again thank you for not asking me to discuss the temple.

I am sorry that you have not got out of the Church what I have.

Kind Regards

Well I'll be a fox in a henhouse.....

Post 80


You truly humble me!
I played my trump card... and I boasted of wisdom through experience...

The goose bumps that rose on my arms and neck when I read your reply, was like a bolt from the blue and it showed me just how wrong I was to boast in the way that I did.
It also reminded me of how I once felt about my beliefs and that maybe I don't have all the answers as I have so boldly asserted.

Please accept my humblest apologies for incroaching on your beliefs as I have.

This may sound strange coming from a person from Utah, but,
It has been a very long time since I have encountered a true believer and not just someone going through the motions of how they have been conditioned to respond.
Alot of anger is simmering within as you can see from my previous postings.
I may have to re-examine a few things.

Thank you and again please accept my apology.

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