A Conversation for The Montreal Massacre

Equality means equal value given to opinion

Post 121

azahar

From Mullet's initial posting:

<>

Thing is, the best we can ever do is to strive towards equality. Who honestly believes that 'the whole thing will go too far in favour of women', that one day women will ever get to 'keep the advantages of women while seizing those of men'? This is simply an argument that misogynists use to fuel their hate-driven diatribes. I mean honestly, even if this did happen one day it certainly wouldn't be in our lifetimes or even our grandchildren's lifetimes.

And the only reason I say it probably won't happen is that I don't believe that total 'equality' is actually possible. There will always be people who are born with more advantages, there will always be selfish people who crave power and obscene wealth, and quite frankly, there will always a need in society for someone to collect the rubbish and do those jobs that nobody really *wants* to do.

However, constantly working towards equality is a very good thing as it helps even things out somewhat and gives people chances they might not otherwise get. It reminds us to neither become arrogant and careless with our advantages nor feel downtrodden and hopeless because of our disadvantages.

Regarding 'unfair' laws, it seems that most laws are imperfect. And there will always be people who try to abuse the system. Singling out women who falsely accuse someone of rape is a bit of a red herring I think. The real issue is that most laws could do with improvements.

As for abortion, after thousands of years women finally have the right to choose when to reproduce. Yet some people still think they should have a right to make decisions about someone else's body and life. If anti-abortionists were truly 'pro-life' they would be concentrating on actual living and breathing children who need help rather than trying to save all 'unborn children'.

Meanwhile, in our attempts at striving for equality, obviously some mistakes will be made along the way. But isn't it better to live and learn while trying to do something decent and fair for all of us rather than to just sit back and continue to embrace our past mistakes because those are the ones we are familiar with? Why be afraid of change just because it might make us uncomfortable? And why turn our fear into hatred and then project it onto those who are trying to do something positive in the world?

I think that was, at least in part, the point that anhaga was trying to make with his Guide Entry. That the tragedy in Montreal ended up making some very real and positive changes within Canada. New awareness was created, new efforts were made to create more equality within society. That although those fourteen innocent young women died needlessly at least they did not die in vain.

Just a few thoughts.

az




Equality means equal value given to opinion

Post 122

azahar

ps

Forgot to say - well done and thank you, anhaga! smiley - ok

Sorry the response on this thread has sometimes upset you but I think it has also made some people think, which is always a good thing.

az


Equality means equal value given to opinion

Post 123

Atlantic_Cable

My, this thread's all over the place like a driver in Colorado who's forgotten his snow chains. smiley - smiley

Just another poker in the fire:

Did you know that in the US, when a condemned person is executed, they get a death certificate, like everyone else.

But the certificate does not have a code for execution, so they are always put down as a homicide. Its a little off topic, but there was a question raised about whether abortion/murder is always wrong. Execution is called "murder by the state", yet many Americans believe that execution is right, so they would answer the question by saying "no, it is justified in execution for murderers."


I agree that forcing your opinions on another person is one of the worst things you can do. It is the equivalent of saying: "His opinions are right, yours are wrong."

Pro-life and pro-choice have been knocking seven bells out of each other (metaphorically) for years.

The problem is they come from diametrically oposite points of view. They are incompatible ideologies. But is a person who says you can't have an abortion worse than a person who says you must have an abortion? Personally I don't know.


PS not all ectopic pregnancies are fatal. THere was a case of triplets where the boy was ectopic. Although delivered by c-section, all three were born healthy and well, and their mother (although in a lot of pain during the pregnancy) survived.


Equality means equal value given to opinion

Post 124

azahar

<>

Pro-choice advocates do not try to force women into having terminations. Because, obviously, that would not be 'pro-CHOICE'.

Forcing anyone to live according to your own personal beliefs constitutes abuse, as far as I'm concerned. For the moment elective terminations are legal. People who personally believe this is wrong are attempting to have this law changed, which is their right as citizens. What *isn't* their right is to personally interfere with another person's choice (imo).

az
pro-life/pro-choice


Equality means equal value given to opinion

Post 125

Noggin the Nog

Well said az (#121 and #124)

There is no law, or any likelihood of a law, that forces a woman to have an abortion or gives any one else the right to make that decision for her, which is as it should be. (Although I suppose one could imagine a medical emergency situation where the woman was not in a position to give consent and immediate life saving surgery was required - but this just confirms that a law can't cover all possible contingencies; we just have to make the best law we can.)

Noggin


rest in peace

Post 126

Kaz

Post 82 by member
'This is absolutely the last post I'm making on this thread'

and yet here it is again on post 87.

I have a backlog to catch up on, I hope this 'member' has posted nothing more. Keep your promise to leave, we will all be happy to see that one kept.


rest in peace

Post 127

azahar

I came across this article this morning that made a lot of sense:


"Barriers to girls in 'male' jobs must go, says report"

http://education.guardian.co.uk/further/story/0,5500,1210432,00.html


az


Looky here people

Post 128

Mullet

Ok, look. I'm not sure whether everyone is seeing these, but I've made a few posts now trying to state my position as I feel it's important. Yet nobody is replying to them so I don't know whether anyone is actually reading them.

Our social, political, legal etc. sytems are indeed biased in favour of men. I see that. I see that women get paid less. And do I like it? No I do not. I really strongly support equal rights.

When I said about "going too far" I meant in certain areas that you sometimes here about like couts ruling in favour of the mother when deciding custody of children even if the father would be a better choice. I'm not sayniog this happens often, just that we should be careful and watch out for things.

It's neccessary to realise that women are equally capable of being sexist, all I object to is the kind of general feeling that women can't be sexiat.


Looky here people

Post 129

badger party tony party green party

Here's a reply for you just for you Mullet.

Do you want us to say we think that your labouring under some fantasy. Well we already have said that. Or would you prefer us to ageree that men as a group are being trampled under the wheels of equality. Well we I wouldnt hold your breath if I were you.



It's neccessary to realise that women are equally capable of being sexist, all I object to is the kind of general feeling that women can't be sexiat.smiley - book

Who here said women cant be sexist?

Who do you know in real life that says they cant?

What has this, if it happens anywhere, got to do with fourteen women being ruthlessly and pointlessly massacred with other people being injured at the hands of an embittered, self pitying, misfit?


When I said about "going too far" I meant in certain areas that you sometimes here about like couts ruling in favour of the mother when deciding custody of children even if the father would be a better choice.smiley - book

Let me tell you how this works:

Dog bites mansmiley - yawn: who cares? Man bites dogsmiley - yikes: that's news.

Fact is men are feeling the squeeze as our once privilidge position is slowly being leveled up. If you think its tough being treated not quite as well as you may have grown to expect spare a thought for those who have never really experienced the privilidges you were born with.

Our social, political, legal etc. sytems are indeed biased in favour of men. I see that. I see that women get paid less. And do I like it? No I do not. I really strongly support equal rights.smiley - book

Define strongly?

Because you seem to be saying that things have gone to far or somtimes go to far even though you yourself say you're not really sure what goes on. Some men lose out in residency rulings and this outweighs the fact that in the UK alone on average two women a week are killed by their partners or ex's, is that what you mean by too far? Men have to be named when they are charged with rape and on average a woman is beat 33 times in her home by her partner before she will ask the police for help, is that why you think things have gone too far. There are still people who think that the clothes a woman wears are in some way an invitation for men to force her to have sex against her will and the law that said rape within marriage was OK, is that what you mean by too far.

That some men think things have gone too far reflects more on those men than the facts of the wider situation.

one love smiley - rainbow













Looky here people

Post 130

anhaga

Just thought I'd add a little something to this thread for those who feel that "feminists" say this or that or "feminists" want this or that. Here are the words of an actual feminist:

"It's important that young women and men realize that feminism and hate have nothing to do with each other. Feminists want to change the system so that women can enjoy the same privileges as men, as well as assuming the same responsibilities. Girl Power doesn't mean no boy power. It simply means little girls who are empowered to do things they didn't used to be."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_binks/20040521.html

If one is scared of or offended by feminism or feminists, one doesn't know feminism or feminists.


Looky here people

Post 131

Ferrettbadger. The Renegade Master

Feminism cover a very broad spectrum of views, whilst the view of the Feminist you quote probably represents the mainstream of Feminist thought there are strands of more radical feminism.

Some radical Feminists propose for instance that there are innate difference between men and women and that in many spheres women are in fact much better...


Looky here people

Post 132

Mullet

Exactly, and those are the ones I'm complaining about. Not the type that anhaga just mentioned.


Looky here people

Post 133

Ferrettbadger. The Renegade Master

Mullet how much do you *actually* know about radical feminism? Your initial statement was:-

"They do "want to keep the advantages of women while seizing those of men""

Which is miles away from the viewpoint held by most radical feminists. What I said was in no way meant to be an endorsment of your orgional post. I would suggest you go out and read about feminism; and its various ideological schools before commenting on it.


Looky here people

Post 134

anhaga

"Some radical Feminists propose for instance that there are innate difference between men and women and that in many spheres women are in fact much better..."

"Exactly, and those are the ones I'm complaining about."

I really shouldn't have started this up again.smiley - sadface

So, Mullet. There are no spheres in which women are "better" than men? Women and men are exactly equal in their abilities in all spheres? Men are better in some spheres? What exactly are you complaining about? Blicky's example doesn't seem radically feminist or masculinist: the masculinist side has for years often argued that there are a great many spheres in which women are innately much better. Blicky's example is bloody mainstream world for the last 20,000 years.

I'd really like to see an actual quote and a link to a feminist statement that you have a beef with Mullet. Then we could have an actual discussion instead of this vagueness that I suspect none of us find very pleasant. I really do mean this in a nice way.smiley - smiley


Looky here people

Post 135

Kaz

Women are better at men at giving birth.

Oh no, I have made a radical feminist statement and deserve to die.

Apologies for the attitude on a worthy thread which should be full of only respect.


Looky here people

Post 136

Noggin the Nog

<...that there are innate differences between men and women...> So what else is new? smiley - huh

But there's also considerable overlap and what shouldn't be happening is for people to be excluded from work that is (on average) more suited to the opposite sex on the grounds of gender rather than ability; and the payment of lower wages to jobs mostly performed by females.

Noggin


Looky here people

Post 137

anhaga

" Blicky's example"

I'm sorry. That should have been "Ferret's example".smiley - blush


There are too many badgers around here.smiley - winkeye


Looky here people

Post 138

Ferrettbadger. The Renegade Master

Nay problemo!


Looky here people

Post 139

badger party tony party green party

you cant have *TOO* many badgers

smiley - rainbow


Looky here people

Post 140

Mullet

"Women are better at men at giving birth.

Oh no, I have made a radical feminist statement and deserve to die.

Apologies for the attitude on a worthy thread which should be full of only respect."

This kind of childishness cheapens the whole discussion. Thank you so much...


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