h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Indeed, Math. It's likely that Blair's strategy with the US started out as being to get Europe to join with the US with phe precondition of sorting out some of the root causes. The USA didn't buy it, and France and Germany realised that. His self-justifications since then are likely attributed to the psychological phenomenon of cognitive dissonance.

It's interesting, though (Snailrind) that you jumped from the BNP to Islamicist terrorism? Are you suggesting that they're the same phenomenon? Or related?

In terms of the attitudes, propaganda, and types of people involved, they strike me as very similar, yes.

Simpistic, I'd say.

No I wouldn't. I'd say simpListic.

I had a feeling someone would say that! Care to elaborate, or it this thread getting tedious now?

Blathers I have to disagree with you about education there are some that havent or dont want to learn this much is true but id not be so quick to blame it on them.

Often people dont get the message not because the are mentally lacking or just unwilling but because the way it is delivered actually alienates them.

We all learn in different ways I cant learn much from reading long passages or from long lectures but put me in a practical situation and I tend to pick things up very quickly. Thus I learnt about the myths of race and identity.

One of the things I learned early on and forgot to mention when replying to Edie about education is that we as a society need to learn that race and belonging to a culture are at best constraining misconceptions and at worst harful lies.

I went to what we'd call a multicutural school. One of my best friends then was a Gugi boy of Indian/Sikh extraction. He had one of the best rare-groove, electro and early house record collections Ive ever set eyes on. He got stick because this wasnt his culture.

Why?

As a black boy no-one would have batted an eye-lid at me having those records but people thought it odd that he did.

We say things like white people have no rhyth or cant jump as jokes but how many preconceptions are we carrying around with us because we speak about "our culture" as if it belongs to us or we belong to it. It makes things a whole lot easier for the BNP to super impose thier ideas about this copuntry being a white mnas country on top of such a frame work of ideas.

PS>

Eddie, on a thread about two years ago I a brown person comitted to non-violence (except under extreme circumstances) advocated people voting BNP in elections. I cant remeber the thread it was in but i said that peolpe are doing and should do it to give a wake up call to the major parties that their cocerns arent being listened to and that things they want dont arent getting done.

Unfiortunately this appears not to have happened. A side from Michael Howards breif right ward lurch the main parties have anounced nothing more than headline grabbing though ineffective changes to imigration and such like.

It was a bad idea in hindsight to imagine that politicians might listen to voters. How naive of me.

So if I had bothered to vote at the local elections and cast a vote for the BNP as I said I would. Would that have made me trash too?

one love

The BNP, Islamic Millitants, communist witch hunts and 'real' witch hunts all rely or relied on a common factor; demagougery.

Someone willing to whip up an imginged danger and thereby create an enemy that needs to be dealt with where part of the solution is giving power to a leading group who will co-ordinate the crusade and all that they ask in return is power, wealth etc...

Does anyone here think that David 'Dave' Camerons media friendly cycyling to work is an honest attempt to minimise damage to the environment.

Im not saying that no mullah, nazi or christian voice member believes in what their doing Im saying that most followers are too scared of thier particular boget or to scared to step out of line and that a mot of leaders are more motivated by fear of obscurity than anything else.

When I said 'simplistic' earlier - I don't think we can easily make a comparison between the BNP and Islamicist terrorists on the grounds that they're all 'Bad People'. They are different people, from different reasons, doing different bad things, for different reasons. We have to be careful to apply separate critical analyses.

My reason for asking the question as to why we were talking about the BNP one minute and terrorists the next was that I was wondering if some sort of cause and effect was being dreawn - fascism as a reaction to terrorism? Granted that recent mainstream political reaction has created a muslim bogeyman...but note that the BNP were extremely active across Britain, and maid their big electoral breakthoughs in Summer 2001 - ie prior to 9/11.

Blicky:
>>So if I had bothered to vote at the local elections and cast a vote for the BNP as I said I would. Would that have made me trash

I guess you'd have meant well...but it would have been thouroughly misconceived. A naive, dangerous tactic which, far from giving the public/politicians a wake-up call would have legitimated the BNP and swung the parties to cover their territory. ('Our focus groups are telling us to get tough on foreigners and tough on the caused of foreigners.')

At this stage of the debate I stand by despising BNP voters - many of whom, as in Burnley - are in the leafy, white suburbs. How far shall we take it? Should we not, for example, despise a BNP activist who's been hoodwinked into putting on blinkers and ignoring their evident racism? Or their SA wing who beat up British Asians, having been conned into believing that all people with brown skins are potential terrorists? Or the skinhead who's been brought up being told that all immigrants are a blight upon our white and pleasant land?

At what level up the pecking order *aren't* these people scum?

(I refer you to my earlier Social Worker joke)

Well Eddie you arent that different from a racist yourself and you are treating the question I asked like a politician might.

If Im not trash for my voting intentions merely naive can you not conceive that others might be voting that way for just the same reason. im not so naive o think that all who did vote BNP were doing it with intentions similar to mine but there is a probability this is so.

You exhibit racist style thinking in that you presume something about people merely because of a single factor; where they live. It is almost certain that some people who live in those leafy suburbs you talk about came from other less desirable areas and will have relatives who still live there.

Trash is too strong a word to tar all those people with

What's more Islamic terrorism did not begin with 9/11. It goes back further than that and the reaction of many muslims I know to the First Gulf war and the racism right infront of their eyes has been increased feelings of alienation. In some cases this has not just resulted in a feeling of them against us for some Muslims and secularists fom bangladesh and pakistan but a feeling of "why not us against them?"

Times in the UK are not as tough as they have been in the past but feelings about prosperity and opportunity are in the moment and at this moment there are many "communities" who think there is "another lot" who are getting a better deal and having it at their expense.

This needs to be adressed from the side of exposing that there are no others, just us and by going to extremes to make people aware of their equal opportunites so that no one can make ground suggesting the opposites of these truths. OK what Ive said isnt the truth but its closer to the truth than what the millitiant leaders of any hue want "their" people to fight for and we need to get the message across that fighting wont bring happiness.

one love

>>Well Eddie you arent that different from a racist yourself and you are treating the question I asked like a politician might.

locks. I'm talking about opinions, not innate characteristics.

And I think that that comment was a little personal. Do you *really* think I'm a force for bad in the same way as the BNP? Keep it civil, eh?


OK...I'll concede that it's *theoretically* possible that your wake-up call theory may be true. But...on the evidence I've seen, I very much doubt it.

>>You exhibit racist style thinking in that you presume something about people merely because of a single factor; where they live. It is almost certain that some people who live in those leafy suburbs you talk about came from other less desirable areas and will have relatives who still live there.

Wheras I and my family have always lived comfortable lives on the right side of the tracks, eh? How much you presume to know about me and my background.

You are right, though. do 'presume something about people merely because of a single factor'. That factors is that they voted BNP. In the leafy suburbs of Burneley, that vote came from the relatively affluent white middle class. The BNP thug I knew was university aducated (although I don't know his full social history). Griffin is an Oxbridge graduate. I am judging all these people on the empirical fact that they voted for a fascist, racist party. Ignorance of the BNP's true nature is a) no excuse and b) bloody difficult to maintain, given their long history.

Frankly, I believe you are really straining to make a case for BNP voters as naive non-racists. I also think you are giving them the excuse of their background and circumstances. Firstly - these do not automatically lead to fascism. Secondly - I've already pointed at their middle class support.

On the militant islamicism -> fascist reaction. I suggest to you that it's only an excuse. The BNP voters feels justified in voting for a party that is against the same people that they hate because of the prevalent media climate. But racism existed before we'd even heard of Al Qaida.


I really do think it's all too easy to lump all problems together and look for easy root causes. It's lazy thinking. For example...someone earlier mentioned 'Demagoguery.' Yes, indeed Hitler and Mussolini and Mosley and Karadzic were fascist demagogues. And the various extremist mullahs are demagogues also. But Griffin?!!! The BNP are creeping up by a far subtler, quieter nastiness.

<> (blicky)

I like this one, especially because I very much personally relate to it.

I used to always be the top of my class, without even trying, until I was about nine years old. In spite of whatever hell was going on at home. School was my refuge and I saw it as a place where I could be seen as maybe something a bit special. Until one day my teacher told me I wouldn't be given 'top of the class' one month because she said it wasn't fair - other people had to *work harder* to get there than I did. So she gave that award to someone else, even though their marks weren't as high as mine. And I died that day.

I stopped trying to learn anything at all - what was the point? I mean, that little bit of recognition as something meaning I was maybe a little bit special was the only thing that ever got me through my days. Though I still ended up with C grades instead of straight A's. But I really lost all of my self-esteem then.

It was a cr@p school anyhow. But I only know this now.

I also know that education works best when all kids are made to feel special, not just those who get the top marks. That's a really lousy system because one day you're up and then the next, because of *kiddy classroom politics* you're down. And really, how is a nine-year-old expected to understand that sort of nonsense??

Impossible - you just end up breaking their heart and their will to ever trying to bother learning anything else again.

Education has to speak to all kids, obviously. And as blicky says, the delivery is very important - it can make all the difference between a kid feeling included and a part of things or else feeling alienated.

So please, don't blame the kids for being too lazy or stupid to 'get it'. And don't even blame the teachers, as many of them work really long and hard hours trying to complete a syllabus that often has nothing to do with the kids they face every day in their classrooms.

Instead try to work on better education that is about very *here and now* issues as well as including the basic three R's. If you don't make education interesting for kids then why on earth should they be interested?

Sorry. Rant over. For now . . .

az

Awesome rant, az.

Ohh dear you have fallen back on the class system now Eddie.

Im not saying Im right your wrong over opinions about how the BNP got votes there are very likely many different individual reasons but casting everyo who voted for them as trash is just plain silly and does nothing to poiint us toward a possible solution.

How can you claim that class is a meaningful way of adressing *anything* in the UK forty years ago you might have had a leg to stand on and pre WWII this country was still very class bound but today class is meaningless. You can be from a poor family on a sink estate, earn a mint digging up motorways, buy a big house near a good school and suddenly you and your kids a middle class. Do yourself a favour and start thinking like were in the 21st century.

We are as you rightly said said talking about opinions and opinions might make people do monsterous things but the poeple arent monsters in general when there opinions change as mine have about voting BNP then what do the people become? We are not one thing or another and saying someone or a group of people are *this or that* is the way that racists talk.

"Wheras I and my family have always lived comfortable lives on the right side of the tracks, eh? How much you presume to know about me and my background.

Why do we need to bring your family background into this, Im not saying there is anything wrong with you doing so but I just cant see why you have? I dont see where I presuned anything about them.


one love

>>Ohh dear you have fallen back on the class system now Eddie.

I think we're going around in circles and have possibly misunderstood one another.

I started refering to 'White Trash' which it was assumed (by az) I was using in the US class way (= poor whites). I'd intended it as a tautology - BNP voters are (self-evidently) white and are trash by virtue of voting BNP - no matter what social class. Neither have I suggested thatb they are trash 'from the embryo' or that they can't be re-educated. I'm a misty-eyed optimist on this one.

We then got into an argy-bargy where it seemed to be suggested that I was not taking into account the living conditions of BNP voters.

That's when I started mentioning class - in response to this, you see? - because I read (perhaps wrongly) an underlying assumption that their supporters/voters are from deprived backgrounds. They're not.

Then you, Blicky, suggested that the white voters may in the leafy suburbs of Burnley may have come from deprived areas. Into this I read (again, perhaps wrongly) that you believe that you know more about issues of deprivation than I might. I'm simply trying to avoid that pissing game.

Look...I'm trying to be conciliatory here and move the debate on from perceived attacks and self-justification. Over to you: What's *your* solution? Does it involve *no* censure? It may be my worst fault, but I'm far too illiberal for that myself.



I'll happily debate separately the bizarre Blairite notion that cl;ass issues are no longer relevant to contemporary politics. But not here. Please.

Fair enough!

Im not suggesting that I know more about this or that than you. I do think though that you are for whatever reasons forgetting that out there in the big bad world and on here that people really need to be engaged on this one.

I think that recognising our similarities is an important thing to do. When you are calling BNP voters white trash and the right wingers and racists are verbally or literally bashing "immigrants" you are doing the same thing.

We need, as Ive said before to have more discussion in politics, in Education, and in places of worship about the historical facts regarding the movement of people and the developments of culture. so that people dont think that their physical and cultural identity is the default or "right" one and al else is is foreign or lesser simply by virtue of being different.

I dont think moral censure is the right thing at all. No one should be ashamed for feeling the way they do. They shouldnt even be ashamed of feeling they they did. People need chances to learn and its an uphill battle when kids grow-up hearing racist ideas at home or from peers, but we make it harder when we dont take this seriously.

I learnt the trivia of 1066, Robinhood, Carter and King Tut the national saints and such like as a kid at school. Subjects similar to these insignificant histories and religious fairy stories still make up the back bone of primary teaching. What we need are lessons that lead people into recognising the right of differing people to be here rather than subjects which ignored the diverse heritages and experiences of these childrens parents and grandparents.

I think that would be a start.

one love

But, but, but...I'm still far from convinced that the voters aren't naive, non-racists.

See where I'm coming from? I agree that education is ultimately the answer. It is to practically everything. But different educational strategies apply in different cases:
- Educating a naive electorate as to the real aims, objectives, tactica and nature of the BNP
- Educating people in general that we as a nation simply will not tolerate racism.

(And, in the positive way you describe, backing it up by restating the obvious necessity of pluralism)

>>I dont think moral censure is the right thing at all. No one should be ashamed for feeling the way they do.

Hmmm. A couple of times in my life I've been with people who've expressed support for the BNP way of thinking. They've been partly in jest, but I've still given them short shrift. In my book it's a 'Refuse To Share A Room With Them' issue. Sorry - but It's where my moral line is drawn. And if they ever come canvassing at my door, I'll not stand and debate like I would with another candidate. I hope I'll have the courage to spit in their weasely little faces.




It's much, much harder from the guy on the sink estate to become a self-made millionaire than the guy from the leafy suburb. It *can* be done - but some have bigger hurdles to jump than others. And wages and Ts&Cs for contractorised manual labour jobs have been in steady decline. By far the easiest route is still the Branson route - have a rich daddy. Recent statistics show that social mobility has, in fact, *decreased* over recent decades...Oh bum! In wasn't going to get into this one...

I meant...

But, but, but...I'm still far from convinced that the voters ARE naive non-racists.

>I learnt the trivia of 1066, Robinhood, Carter and King Tut the national saints and such like as a kid at school.<

That would be Magna Carter?

Just wondering

"What about Magna Carta! Did she die in vain?"

No, that was Eleanor Rigby.