h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Really Eddie, I expected better (don't know why but I did).

"That said...their voters are still white scum. I'll stand by that assessment (why quibble over words)."

I'm no apologist for fascists, which is quite plainly what the BNP and their core supporters are. However, to win an election they need far more votes than just their core.

The people that voted may well be be poor, they may well be white, they may also be uneducated, but they are still men and women with children, more bills than income, hopes and dreams, just like me or even you in your ivory-bloody tower.

They are not scum, and the minute you characterise them as that you have lost them to the BNP forever. For it confirms the lies that the BNP have told them. You become part of that mythical liberal-left elite out to crush them, an elite that hates them and mistreats them.

Most of these people voted for the BNP out of anger and fear. This fear was fuelled by the oversimplification and even invention of the facts by our pathetic newspapers and the lies of the BNP.

Fear is born of ignorance and can only be defeated by education and the truth. The other parties involved in those elections did not choose to defeat these lies, instead they attacked the characters of the BNP's candidates. Again confirming the BNP's propaganda.

Cold, hard facts, presented in a way that anyone can understand defeat fascism every time.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\

I see your point...but I'm afraid that in the case of the BNP, I can't entirely agree.

Yes, the political arguments have to be made - calmly and firmly. But in the case of the BNP, it isn't just verbal argument we're up against. They are a clear and present danger to our communities and must be resisted 'by any means necessary.'

Obviously we need to be tactical about this. Violence can be counterproductive - especially when, as in Summer 2001, it is orchestrated so that it plays as lawlessness by British Asians. But I'm all for measures such as making sure that fascists are hounded out of their jobs. I'' respectfully listen to the argument that this is not how democracy works - and I have some sympathy for it. But I'll argue back that the BNP are not a democratic party.

Here, once again, is the story of a (former) colleague of mine who was active in my community: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2356837.stm As elsewhere, their intention was to stir up teenage hotheads.



btw...hats off to the mods. I got 2 e-mails from them this a.m, one saying that the first post here had been temporarily hidden. The second one explaining that this was because of sensitivities in the current climate...and restoring it following editorial review. I had had a fear that I'd be held to be making 'unproven' allegations.

(simulpost - that reply was to R'man)

To Math:

OK - so intemperance gets the better of me. My default belief system is that we are all the ceration of our circumstances and even the most antisocial elements can be rehabilitated.

That said...decent folk don't vote BNP. Alongside the factual arguments we must instill a sense of shame. Like rubbing a puppie's nose in its faeces.

Hi Eddie

I'd stick by that default belief system if I were you. When you don't you say daft things like:

"That said...decent folk don't vote BNP."

Oh yes they do, but not for the reasons you may ascribe to them. As I explained they do so out of fear, out of ignorance and as the result of carefully created disinformation that makes them feel they are forced to support a movement some of whom's other policies make them very uncomfortable.

After all a lot of people voted for Michael Howard's Conservative campaign at the last election, and that was clearly aimed at recruiting voters from the far right camp. Were they all 'scum' too?

Instill a sense of shame huh? What a nice piece of work you would be in government. You don't need to humiliate people into moving away from the BNP, you just need to show them what the BNP actually represents and what their policies would mean, if taken to their logical conclusions.

For instance...

If the BNP ever came to power they would immediately begin 'voluntarily' repatriating all people who haven't got three generations in a British churchyard.

Net result, economic catastrophe as Britain is forced out of Europe and then loses most of its trading partners in the Commonwealth as well. There is a good chance we would be removed from the UN Security Council by a general vote and then be subjected to economic sanctions.

Not to mention the massive loss of skilled workers and businessmen.

Next up, the dismantling of all devolved institutions of State. Northern Ireland would return to paramilitary terrorism as first the Republicans and then the Unionists abandoned the ballot box for the bomb. It is very likely Scotland would follow suit.

It would be easy to stir up unrest as the economy would be a basket case with millions unemployed, and most government departments unable to pay their workers.

The BNP goverment would use this as an excuse to suspend democratic processes and assume direct control (they have discussed this in their 'secret' meetings). The Army would be put onto the streets. It is likely that Scottish, Irish and Welsh Regiments might refuse and then they would be purged.

I'd give it six months before a full civil war ensues, and then we have UN-backed American, Russian and EU troops treading our streets.

Welcome to the Balkans, Mk2.

All this information is on MI5 video and audio recordings of BNP closed leadership meetings. The present governement could release these if they wished, but it suits them to have a bogeyman up their sleeve to scare the left wing electorate, especially if they can tar the Tories with the same brush.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\

My point is that these are all obvious. But BNP voters...I still maintain...either don't care about such things or are incapable of understanding. Their short-term interest is in getting people of colour beaten up. Since you've mentioned the Balkans, that's pretty much what happened there: thuggery from fringe elements of society spread into the mainstream. Similarly, the Nazis.

I'm not convinced we're yet at the stage where the fascists have started to convince/ scare ordinary, decent people to vote for them. However - there is the danger that their current level of support has given them a leg up into the mainstream. Next thing we know we'll be seeing Griffin on Question Time.

Just seen here (suggestions for panelists): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/question_time/4333774.stm
"Nick Griffin of the BNP. He should be allowed to put forward the party's point of view in open debate, rather than being continually harangued in the media without apparently having the right of reply."
Roger Holmes, Watford

While I do, as I've said, have some sympathy for the idea, I think the tactic of trying to expose these demagoguic liars with calm reason is extremely risky. We must continue to make it clear that they are a front for viciousness and supporting them *in any way* is beyond the pale.

Your point about keeping them as a bogeyman is interesting...although I doubt that New Labour have the competence; they're so prone to cock up that their ability to conspire is dubious. My take is that they have ignored the issue because they don't want too be associated with the sort of left-wing organisation founded by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Plus at times they've found it convenient themselves to take a populist, xenophobic stance.



It's strange, Math. I feel that we're both on the side of the angels, but your last couple of postings have been somewhat intemperate towards me. I know we're disagreeing elsewhere - and will continue to do so - but can't we compartmentalise a little?

I cant sit by while people on here who ought to know better go around calling people they have met or conversed with trash and/or scum...even if they are white

Seriously though I do know some people involved with the BNP at different levels one of them is was a prospective counsellor.

He is motivated by fear, after being attacked (by a group of Asian youths) and supported by a lot of people who feel that in a lot of ways they are on the bottom of the pile and arent being helped out by the system as run by the mainstream parties.

It's not soley an underlying feeling of hatered and a wish to see violence visited on minorities that motivates them. A lot of these people dont KNOW that they are being lied to by the BNP.

They are told that they are being lied to by people like Tony Blair or John Presscott, people we all know are liars already, being not very media savvy they tend to believe the people with less mud slung at them. They look at the quantity of headlines not the quality of the sources.

People who have been showed to have lied and then brass necked it out time and time again claim someone else is a liar then the BNP say "not we arent"....well if I didnt know better *I'd* probably believe the BNP.

I dont know a lot of people who voted BNP, maybe people arent addmitting to it. Maybe not many people did and it was low turn out combined with a small upsurge for them that carried the day in places like Tipton.

If I were reading this thread as a white person from Tipton Id get the impression that not only have a lot of the white intelligensia running this country deserted the cause of helping the proliteriat but now they are calling me names for having the temerity to vote for someone who might help me and calling me names for the sin of being white.

Way to go Eddie.

one love

I'm reminded of a joke:
This social worker is walking down the road. She comes across someone who is lying in the gutter, torn clothes, bruised and bleeding - clearly having been mugged. 'My God!' she says, 'The person who did this to you needs help!'

Yes, I've been deliberately using intemperate language. I don't, I'm afraid, feel very much like apologising for offence that I might cause to any BNP voter who might happen to be reading. Neither do I - sincerely - think that it's this sort of confrontational attitude that is what delivers additional votes for the BNP. There are various approaches one can take - but history suggests that polite discussion is not particularly effective when faced by this brand of clear and present danger. It would be like standing on the corner of Cable St. and trying to explain the economic circumstances that gave rise to the depression. Or pissing on a bonfire.

I would like to put it back to you that you have a patronising view of the people who voted for the BNP. Yes, many of them will be living in dire circumstances. But that makes them no less aware of or capabable of judging the BNP for what they are than me, you or my ex-colleague - a professional on £30+K. It also ignores the many people in similar circumstances who won't give house room to fascism, no matter how much tacit support it receives from the mainstream media. I'm sure there are many decent white people in Tipton who'd agree. On what basis do you assume that they would be the least bit offended by my views on BNP voters?

I feel this has got more confrontational and personal than I'd have wished. It *is* a useful debate, though. In terms of 'What must be done about the BNP?' - and I'm sure we'd all agree *something* - is it all down to polite education? Who's doing the education? How?

A word from the ivory tower . . . I don't mean that really, because the person I'm about to quote really did live his philosophy, unlike Schopenhauer for instance.

If someone proposes to act on a wrong that will damage you and those you stand for, there are a couple of responses. You can go on the offensive (war), hoping to overrule them; or you can persuade them (jaw).

In a democracy an overruled minority becomes (if it grows) ardently united, that is, dangerous. Better than silencing is counter-argument. Persuasion should be aimed at really persuading the person speaking the wrong; window-dressing to gather supporters won't do the job, it will only preach to the converted.

Now on persuasion, Wittgenstein says: "One of the most important tasks is to express all false thought processes so characteristically that the reader says, "Yes, that's exactly the way I meant it". To make a tracing of the physiognomy of every error.

"Indeed we can only convict someone else of a mistake if he acknowledges that this really is the expression of his feeling . . .

"For only if he acknowledges it as such, is it the correct expression."

(He was talking of exposing the origin of false thought-processes: namely, in accepting wrong analogies. We have habitually accepted them, simply because nothing made us examine them. I think it applies widely.)

Yes...I *do* have sympathy with the need for rational argument. Honest.

But...we must also make it clear that fascism isn't just one of a range of acceptable viewpoints. A level of disgust must be expressed.

An analogy (and it's not meant to be patronising, given the example):
When my three year old hits his brother or sister, it isn't enough to tell him 'S/he doesn't like that.' I also have to shout 'Naughty!'. I feel that what's being suggested (eg by Blicky) is 'I know s/he's got the toy that you wan't, but s/he doesn't like being hit.'

And, yes, I know that enlightened parents are meant to make it clear that it's the hitting, not the child that's naughty.

I've just noticed Blicky's

>>the sin of being white

Just to make it clear...the fact that the voters are white is factual but not incidental. But it's the voting part not their skin colour that I regard as white.

>A level of disgust must be expressed.<

Does it help? Doubt it. Like shouting "naughty" -- the same message can be sent by actions, looks or mime.

You think Its just about BNP voters who might pass through?

I dont I aim for PC in a lot of what I do because I think its important that we express precisely and correctly so as not to marbinalise or antaginse anyone unfairly or unnesscesarily.

Somehow some where the words you have posted could be used or passed on to taint someoneonelses thoughts either about the people you have chosen to depict so intemperately or even shown to them by people keen to highlight they way they are reviled by us lefty-liberal types.

"history suggests that polite discussion is not particularly effective when faced by this brand of clear and present danger."

No your deliberately narrow reading of history suggests that. If you look more widely you will see that people just get along if there is something in it for them mutually with out too much fuss. Trouble can boil up when people are told lies by people with a vested interest in there being trouble and demagogues get tend to get a more ardent crowd of people when they think they are hard done by.

20 years ago people were happy with a four bedroomed council house for a family of 6. Since Thatcher put a freeze on local authority building new homes and every third programme on TV was about single people buying property to let and the need to won property things have changes in peoples perception. The BNP have been cunning enough to turn this into a race/immigration issue.


"It would be like standing on the corner of Cable St. and trying to explain the economic circumstances that gave rise to the depression. Or pissing on a bonfire."

True it would be like peeing on a bonfire. With hinsight and some small knowlegde of fire prevention its easy to say it should neve have been allowed for so many elements of the causes of fire to build up or come together in the first place.

"I would like to put it back to you that you have a patronising view of the people who voted for the BNP. Yes, many of them will be living in dire circumstances. But that makes them no less aware of or capabable of judging the BNP for what they are than me, you or my ex-colleague - a professional on £30+K.

An otherwise fairly reasonable young man who I do some youth work with said (in a nutshell) "I dont lke to come to Smethwick because there's too many blacks who will steel your jewllery, but not you Karl, you're alright"

There was no hint of irony in what he said not even much acknowledge menat of offense in his apology, I dont thin he understood why I might be offended he simply thought he ought to say that.

We are not educating people well enough on how to live in a multi-etnic and culturally diverse country like the one they live in or more importanly why there is no reason they shouldnt. Whereas the BNP have an addmittedly easier job encouraging people not to live together.

Im appalled by the way that history is still taught along the lines of "What England/Britain gave to the world" and very little room is left for what we got from the rest of the world and are still getting.

Ive had discussions with people on here who seriously think that is a thing called "Britishness" and that its being eroded by foreigners.

Researchers on this site think that a language cobbled together from Nordic, Franco, Germanic, latin and greek roots is somehow indigenous as are traditional foods like turkey, potatos and tomatos. When you think about the BNP having marches for a Catholic saint born in Palastine who slew a dragon you see them for the idots they are but without that sort of backgrouond knowledge and ability to think critically then a lot of what they say does sound reasonable and plausible.

Im a recovering christian, I thought Thatcher was good for Britain for a few yearsand as such Im not patronising towards BNP voters for no reason. Sometimes its hard to see the truth and easy to go a long with an easily digestible summary of a situtaion, sometimes even know some of its lies but why upset the apple cart if you think its heading in the right direction and your promised a share of the apples?

The reality of the Nazis wasnt just the gassing of Jews. People just dont know about the forced repatriation of Rio Ferdinand. Or that Will Young would be persecuted for being gay under a BNP government. People in Tipton dont have jewish friends so they dont care much what facists would do to them. they are parochial because a lot of them dont have the same chances or encouragement to learn that you and I have been lucky enough to have. Are people aware of the restriction on ordniary Germans under the rule of the Nazis? No so they probably arent aware that when the bell has finished tolling for brown people in the UK under the BNP it might be catholics,unmarried parents next or recreational drug users next.

one love

<> (blicky)

Indeed those who oppress and abuse others and support such a way of life often do find themselves on the other side of the sharp stick when the tide changes (mixed metaphor salad).

az

OK - let's imagine a simple test as to whether ordimary BNP voters are racist. Do you think they'd be likely to tell that nice Mr Sadiq who runs the newsagents how they voted? No. They know full well it's a thing of shame. But - hey - safety in numbers! Basically, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it needs a few more minutes in the microwave.

And that, Recumbentman, is also the value in expressing our revulsion in no uncertain terms. Don't let the cosy consensus build up that really it's not *that* bad. Although I fully agree that other forms of education have to proceed in parallel.

<> (blicky)

But I don't want people not to vote for the BNP because it's not in their longer term interests. I want them not to vote for them because it's against the present interests of their brown skinned compatriots.

I don't think it's not that bad. I just say name-calling activates the communication shields.

Some people like to say that problems such as the support of the BNP can be addressed through education. That's great, except for one thing... not everyone is susceptible to education. You have to want to learn. You have to have an ability to learn. And people who end up like BNP supporters often end up that way because of a failure to learn.

Most meaningful change (good or bad) in society is brought about by unreasonable people. For example, Dubya has changed the world a whole lot more significantly than Clinton did. The BNP are unreasonable people using unreasonable tactics. To counter that with reasonable arguments is to concede defeat.

>> I just say name-calling activates the communication shields.

Possibly...but so long as they keep their heads down and don't start to think that violence, intimidation and discrimination are legitimate - that'll do for now. Education we can get to in the longer term. Leading by example is the best way. In the 1970s we had the twin prongs of the ANL and RAR: Immediate defence and longer term 'Look - all the fun is happening amongst the non-racists.'

Blatherskite - as usual you've managed to put a fresh perspective. I don't say that BNP voter are *incapable* of learning - I'm a misty-eyed optimist - but first they're going to have to realise just how out of step they are.


When I first moved to a multicultural area - 40% Muslim - I was also travelling for work quite a lot. Glasgow taxi drivers tend to be chatty, and in my airport taxis I'd often be asked how long I'd lived in the area and whether I liked it. I'd say 'Not long - but I'm enjoying it.' In return I'd get something like 'Mind you - lot of [the filter prohibits the abbreviation for Pakistani's] here, and I'd say (through gritted teeth) 'Yes, that's one reason I like it.' And bang would go the tip.

One time, near Diwwali, the Sikh Gurdwara was lit up. My driver said:
'Huh! Look at all those Christmas lights. An' they're no even Christians!'
Sigh. But I thought I'd give him one more chance:
'Well,' I said, 'They're probably celebrating Diwwali. But you know Sikhs - any excuse for a booze-up!'
'Aye, right enough. They try and fit in. Not like those bloody muslims!'

So I started trying to avoid early morning taxi conversations. Then one day as I took my seat, my driver said:
'Hello. You must be new in the area. I've lived here all my life and I don't recognise you.'
'Yeah,' I said. 'I've not been here long - but I like the place.'
'Mind you,' he said, 'You know what a lot of people say about the area?'
(Sigh. Gritted teeth) 'I think I know what you're going to say'
'And that's the kind of petty-minded bigotry I can't stand!' says he.
Manny. Old-school Jewish socialist whose hobby is visiting his old friends who've moved out to the posh suburbs and annoying them. Lovely man. Well sound. I still bump into him from time to time.
<\unrelated anecdotal tangent>

<>

I'd say its more common that they're just not interested. You start talking about political ideologies and their impact throughout history, and you're going to lose a certain kind of audience with your first breath. But tell them they're poor because some dark-skinned individual is taking away a job rightfully theirs, and you'll get their attention.

Plus, there are people like Della.

Yes, it is a feature of all of us living things that we love to be told there is a simple answer, even if it is 42.