h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>>Plus, there are people like Della.

See...this is where it gets interesting. For all of us...me included...our ideas are formed within our environment. Some of those who've been finding me disagreeable for castigating BNP voters have not, in the past, been so tolerant of others who accept the easy solution of a perfectly respectable, mainstream religion.

It is a difficult one, where to draw the line. Take Nazi Germany. Do all run-of-the-mill Nazi supporters on the same level of abhortion as Eichmann? No! But compared with those who didn't buy in to the Nazi lies (and there were many!), or even those who actively resisted (further h2g2 Entries on die Weisse Rose and der Rote Kapelle pending) - well - they deserve *some* approbation. Surely?

My argument is that the current batch of BNP voters are not the deluded masses but the early adopters.



Surely?

Ignore the 2nd Surely - C&P error. I wasn't calling anyone Shirley.

Do you mean approbation or opprobrium?

Abhortion I like but I guess you mean abhorrence.

Hi Eddie

"It's strange, Math. I feel that we're both on the side of the angels, but your last couple of postings have been somewhat intemperate towards me. I know we're disagreeing elsewhere - and will continue to do so - but can't we compartmentalise a little?"

My apologies, I've been a bit sharp with everyone of late. A bit worried about my latest set of medical tests I suppose.

I think that you are making a bit of an unsupported assumption when you say "But BNP voters......Their short-term interest is in getting people of colour beaten up."

There is quite a distance to walk from: 'I'm annoyed at all them immigrants getting things I think that I am entitled to', to 'I hope someone will do them over'.

Most potential BNP supporters of my acquaintance have absolutely nothing against the Jamaican they work with every day - that's Derek, he's alright; the Bangladeshi they buy their newspaper from - that's Kamal, he supports Arsenal like me; or the Turk who serves them with a kebab on a Saturday night - that's Mehmet, his kids play football with mine on the street.

But they do worry where their kids will live when the tabloids and the fascist on the doorstep tells them that the labour council is selling all their housing stock to 'blacks' from the next borough, or keeping them empty for Poles and Czechs who come over here to 'do our jobs'.

These are ordinary decent people, not closet Nazi's, and that is the danger. If Nick Griffin's thugs have learnt one thing from New Labour it is the art of propaganda, putting a reasonable face on the otherwise vile. I watched several of the new BNP councillors being interviewed. Not one was a Phil Mitchell lookalike. Most were handsome lads, with big smiles, a firm handshake, and a suit that didn't look too expensive (a mistake Tories always make in working class areas, a £1,000 suit in front of voter who has never held that much cash in his life).

When out on the stump these men were approachable, affable, local, very touch on the shoulder, word in your ear, willing to stand and listen, nodding in agreement at all the petty complaints of the potential voter. In short, they were well-trained and carefully selected. Poster boys for the neu-Sturm Abteilung.

Remember the Nazi's in Germany rode to power with the assent of the little man, not the racist thugs of the SA.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\

>These are ordinary decent people, not closet Nazi's, and that is the danger.

But that's the thing--ordinary decent people *are* all potential Nazis. Racism is what comes naturally. Recognition of universal brotherandsisterhood has to be cultivated. And that means voluntarily.

I'm not sure I buy it that racism comes naturally. It's an ideological position, after all.

Imagine if you had come into existance as a fully thinking adult, no contact with parents or anyone else, in a blank room. If a black man comes in, are you going to instinctively view him negatively?

Or if a white man with no arms and legs comes in, and a black man who is physically the same as you apart from colour comes in, which 'race' would you be racist against?

Approbation? I guess I must have looked up the 'Opposites' section of my mental Thesaurus by mistake. The daft thing is...I *did* know the difference.

Abhortion I'll stick with. Yes, it's usual, and it's not in dictionary.com - but I've heard it several times in the past. On the other hand...the grammar went a bit funny in that sentence, did it not? In the context I intended, it would have 'abhortion' would have made more stylistic sense than 'abhorrence'. Probably. Maybe I need the green squigglies after all.


Math...

We may have to agree to differ on our opinions of the current voters until such time as we can conduct a house-to-house survey (rather you than me). I contend that wiu'd have to be *wilfully*, rather than passively ignorant of their true colours - especially if you live in a community where you can witness the fear they instill amongst some of your neighbours. Yes - they've been clever enough to play that down officially, but c'mooooon! It's one of those 'But we all know...' things.

(Oi! And no more ivory towers digs, huh? I'll let you off because you've not been feeling well - but I can't imagine what you assume you know about my life. It's not *that* sheltered!)

wiu'd? you'd!

>>Racism is what comes naturally.(R'man)

>>I'm not sure I buy it that racism comes naturally. It's an ideological position, after all. (Bomba)

Ditto, Bomba. The old trendy leftie saw is that 'Children have to be taught to be racist.' That's my experience, too. I'll accept that I may have indoctrinated my own children by subtle signals, but it seems to me that they didn't notice the colour of the children in the nursery they went to (they were the only white children, and only one of the carers was white). In the case of my daughter - she became quite upset at her primary school (98% white - we've moved) when some other kids started to say that a black kid was dirty.

(That was the start of the real indoctrination. As a reward for telling us - we let the school know - I made her a special certificate with a picture of Nelson Mandela)

Recumbentman - it's not like you. Are you wearing the shit-tinted glasses today? Granted, though, conflicts are the default when dissimilar groups encounter one another for the first time. On the other hand...there are many examples of vibrant, multicultural societies. The great trading cities where cultures/races rub up against one another generally tend to become the powerhouses of the world.

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Interesting ambiguity in that!

I think it's the BNP's education policy.

I've been reading too much evolutionary stuff. Of course in a multicultural society (like Brazil by all accounts) you don't notice skin colour, and it doesn't have to be learnt, not to.

What I mean is that xenophobia -- fear of strangers -- comes naturally, to people acting in groups, though less to people as individuals. A group dynamic is a pretty irresistible pressure.

Well clarified...but now, you're being *slightly* rosy-tinted about Brazil, from what I hear.

The odd thing is - I'm a natural Xenophile. It's not a stance - it's just how I am.


Maybe there are two types of people - (I'll call them) the endoskeptic and the exoskeptic. I saw an example of this once at a family dinner. My uncle had offered a choice of lasagne or, for the traditionalists, shepherd's pie and he was asking who wanted what. My 90+ year old (maternal) Grandpop was somewhat deaf, so my father - the embodiment of endoskepsis - answered for him: 'He'll want the shepherd's pie.' Then Grandpop piped up, 'I'll have some of that lasagne stuff. I've never tried it before.' Typical of the man. The day before his 80th birthday he was reminiscing: 'I spent my 16th birthday in Valparaiso. They spoke Spanish there. I think I'll learn Spanish.' And he did.

Never been to Brazil, but my opinion derives from John Boorman's excellent book about filming there "Money into Light". He asked his friends (to test his hunch) at a cafe table in Rio "that chap who just went out--was he black?" and no-one could answer.

He said Brazil was just the melting-pot that America claimed to be, but isn't.

A black cabbie in London said to me recently: "you're not from these parts, are you?"

Math, you said: "Most potential BNP supporters of my acquaintance have absolutely nothing against the Jamaican they work with every day - that's Derek, he's alright; the Bangladeshi they buy their newspaper from - that's Kamal, he supports Arsenal like me; or the Turk who serves them with a kebab on a Saturday night - that's Mehmet, his kids play football with mine on the street.

"But they do worry where their kids will live when the tabloids and the fascist on the doorstep tells them that the labour council is selling all their housing stock to 'blacks' from the next borough, or keeping them empty for Poles and Czechs who come over here to 'do our jobs'."

This is my experience too. I've no idea whether this is the norm for racists, but I rarely see the other kind, the KKK kind.

Here in Wales there's a lot of anti-English racism: "those imperialist baastuds took Britain off of us an' now they're invadin' what land we 'ave left, stealin' ower reservoir water an' buyin' up ower 'ouses an' pushin' theyer langwidge on us. Why don't they all sod off back to Denmark or wherever the 'ell they come from? Mind, that Sharon and Bill next door are alright. An' old Norah down the post office, mun, she's a gem, she is."

Edward, you said: "but c'mooooon! It's one of those 'But we all know...' things."

I wish I could believe that, but just ain't true.


Going back to the subject of extremists, Edward (and others), do you have any thoughts on how anti-Western terrorists ought to be dealt with? It's a very extreme form of the situation this thread has been discussing, both being made up of clever psychos and misled accomplices. Is it better to negotiate, or to respond in "the only way they'll understand"?

It's a tough one. I agree that polite debate with the brainwashed is like pissing on a bonfire. On the other hand, an angry response is usually over-emotional and under-considered.

Oof! Well now...

One thing to recognise is that the current terrorism phenomenon is nothing new. The kind of people doing it are *exactly* the same as previous hotheads. They are not aliens. And I'm not convinced they're 'anti-Western.'

The second thing is to remember something that my headmaster said. He was in military intelligence in Palestine and was shot at by the leader of the Stern Gang, Menachem Begin, when they tried to arrest him follwing the King David's Hotel massacre: 'We have always negotiated with terrorists.' Difficult in this case, when we're faced with such a loose grouping with ill-formed demands - but it's going to have to happen, eg, in Iraq. That is not to say we give in. We need to 'speak softly and carry a big stick'. Basically, the same as my approach with BNP voters.

A third thing...(or maybe two-and-a-halfeth) - we have to understand the grievances. Assuming they're *not* alien madmen - what have they got against us? That's not too difficult, surely? Many of us in this country are deeply disturbed - angry, even - about what's going on in the world. How must it feel if when it's closer to home? I'm *in no way* justifying the tactics any more than I would have justified the IRA's tactics in the quite justified cause of self-determination...but you have to think...'this guy thinks there's a cause worth dying/being killed for. Is he right?'

A messy answer I'm afraid. You've opened the topic right up and there might have to be some development along the way.

The short, trite answer as to how to deal with the people: 'Within the principles of law and justice.'

...worth dying/being killed for

I meant

...worth dying/killing for

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I think this is the case with a lot of types of prejudice. If people have been taught to believe certain stereotypes, anyone they meet who doesn't fit the stereotype must be an exception to the rule. It doesn't occur to them to actually question the stereotype.

What you do with a particular activist is another question. What do you do with psychopaths? There are quite a few about in every grouping of people.

Hi Snailrind

"Edward (and others), do you have any thoughts on how anti-Western terrorists ought to be dealt with?"

Go to the root cause and work forwards from there. How about the 'West' enforcing all the UN Resolutions that Israel has ignored? Most arabs and palestinians are realistic enough to realise they ain't going to get rid of Israel now, but if that illegal state was brought down a peg or two, it might help.

We could start by pushing them out of the occupied territories, all of them. Dismantling the very selective landgrab wall. The perhaps summoning a few of them before the International Criminal Court for war crimes. Oh yes reparations to the palestinians to help them set up their state.

Israel would still exist and would be much more secure for most of the causes of the terrorists would be swept away. And our security wopuld also be more assured.

Ain't going to happen though while the US shields Israel from all responsibility for its actions.

For those who think its a pipe dream look at South Africa. Apartheid could only exist while the US and the UK tacitly supported it.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\