This is a Journal entry by Pinniped

Cracks in the Foundations

Post 21

Steve51

My Goodness, Hypatia..my father's surname was Jakymuik, and he came from a village called Izvestia. We have limited records, and have relatives in the USA, but they refuse to make contact as they seem to have this old phobia about Stalin and his regime...I know they went through terrible times then, but I would think their children and grandchildren would be more enlightened as time progresses...smiley - smiley


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 22

Hypatia



Stephen, my grandfather's name was Wiest. He was born in Odessa. His parents were part of a German settlement there. His father died, his mother remarried and the step-father didn't want him. His uncle took him in when he was 3 or 4, something like that, then took him to the US with him around 1880.


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 23

Steve51

Hypatia, I will start a new thread, if you don't mind, and that way we can avoid drifting off topic. I am fascinated by my Dad's background, and we as a family are eager to find as much detail as we can...smiley - smiley


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 24

Mister Matty

"The comparison of Islam and western democracy is interesting. In both cases it is the perceptions that cause the problem. Remember those old word association tests? Say Islam and many/most Americans will think terrorism/twin towers/suicide bombers/enslaved women/evil/danger. Say democracy to an Arab and he is likely to think Yankee imperialism/invader/greed/infidel/evil/danger."

I've no idea where you got that impression but I've seen nothing to suggest that the average arab associates democracy with "evil". The only arabs I've seen who do this are Islamists who oppose democracy because they (correctly) claim it is incompatible with their beliefs which are a strict interpretation of Islam which has no time for differing viewpoints. Taking Iraq as an example of an arab country, the vast majority of the population when given the opportunity to vote in an election (ie partake in the democratic process) did so (and given the very real threats made against them by the terrorist militias we can assume that their desire was quite strident). I'd therefore conclude that, given the evidence, most arabs think of democracy positively.


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 25

Mister Matty

>A Muslim Enlightment? Yes, and that needs to begin with moderates saying "Enough, you're making all of us look bad and misrepresenting our ideals." And like stephen points out, the West needs a serious readjustment of priorities.

Moderates are saying this all the time but they are underrepresented in Middle Eastern governments which seem to tend towards religious-rightwing or authoritarian strongmen. I think such an enlightenment needs to come from a large cultural shift rather than a few voices saying they don't agree with suicide bombing. The European enlightenment was largely brought-about by the Protestant reformation so what is probably needed is a huge schism in Islam.

I'm not sure why the West needs a "readjustment of priorities" to bring about an Islamic enlightenment since, as I've said, I think it's an internal thing. Can you elaborate?


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 26

Steve51

Zagreb, I can't elaborate on someone else's thoughts or views, but fanatacism always raises it's ugly head, no matter in which nation, when our Leaders detour away from what we would consider to be proper human values, needs, wants and desires. I firmly believe that ALL cultures share these same human characteristics, and yet there are always the power mad and evil hungry few in every culture, and in our innocence we don't see them climb their way to the top until they have arrived at the peak and suddenly start to strip away our very human dignities. It is too late by then of course, as we tend to disregard any warnings by wise people in our midst, while we go about our daily lives. These situations arise in every type of political or government system, whether it be a democratic society or a despotic society. In many ways, some US Presidents, some British PMs, some Australian PM, have been just as despotic as say Hussien, Stalin, and Hitler to name a few, and yet these three countries are known as Liberal Democracies....smiley - sadface but True, unfortunately.


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 27

Hypatia

Hi Zagreb. What I meant by the readjustment in priorities has nothing to do with a Muslim Enlightment. I simply meant that the west needs to rethink ~our~ priorities.

And the remark about word associations indicates that in my experience with Muslims, which is limited, they make jumps that take them away from the original point of discussion. A discussion about democracy turns into attacks on US foreign policy. In the same way many Americans seem unable to discuss Islam outside of the context of terrorism. I think that misperceptions cause these jumps in reasoning to occur and that both sides are equally prone to them.


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 28

Ancient Brit

Cracks will appear in the foundations of any belief if you consider alternatives. If your belief is sound and strong enough what need is there to shake its foundation ?
Live and let live gives a solid base.


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 29

Willem

I would like to say something here. What we are talking about when we talk about 'democracy' does not refer to some sort of ideal concept or principle ... it refers to political systems that are supposed to be implemented for real in real countries. And the thing is, there are countless different kinds of systems that can all be called 'democratic'. There are different ways of letting people 'vote' and for presenting choices to them.

For instance, here in South Africa we have a democracy that is guided and constrained by a constitution. The constitution we have is one that is the result of negotiations between the White Apartheid government and the ANC and other 'liberation' movements. The constitution can only be changed by a 2/3 majority vote in parliament. The constitution limits choices that voters can make. Even if the majority of voters want something that goes against the constitution, they cannot have it. Practical example: the constitution prohibits the use of the death penalty in this country. The majority of people in this country want the death penalty to be reimplemented (just for the record - I do not). But because it is against the constitution, it can not be allowed, except by changing the constitution itself ... which needs more than a mere 'majority' vote.

'Democracy' as a general principle can take any of a million different forms in practice: actual political systems, and the ways they allow people to vote, and the things they allow them to vote for ... some of which might work very well, others which might work extremely poorly. The 'kind' of democracy might need to differ in different countries ...


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 30

Mister Matty

I agree. Strictly-speaking what we generally refer to as "democracy" is really a form of republicanism. In Europe the trend is the parliamentary system whilst in the new world (the USA being an obvious example) there's a tendency towards Presidential republics where a powerful head of state works with (or against) other layers of government.

I think the reason we say "democracy" and not "republic" is because republic has somehow come to mean a state with an elected (or even non-royal) head of state.

Strictly-speakind a democracy is a country where the voters determine policy directly rather than through representatives. This idea has never been tried in a modern state and no one seriously advocates it (other than a few cranks, all of whom seem convinced that the public hold the same bonkers views as they do). There's good reason for this - the public are by-and-large ill-informed of the minutae of government and too easily swayed by demagogues and simplistic arguments. The current system ensures that the public have huge sway over how government is run *without* running it themselves. That's not perfect but it's better than the alternatives.


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 31

Ancient Brit

Come now people. Whether your beliefs are political or religious the need for administration arises. It's the form of administration that causes the initial carck. That crack is widened when claims for administration expenses are presented and it is realised that whilst everything in the world is free, administration, organisation and labour costs money. Everything may still be 'ok' if neighbour would speak peace onto neighbour but the distribution of wealth and communication together really do rock the foundation.


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 32

Willem

I'm not at all convinced that there are not 'alternatives' that would work better than the current systems of democracy used in Europe or the USA. As for *other* places ... here in South Africa the current 'democratic' system is quite a mess. The constitution agreed upon, while having some good points, also has many bad points, and at the moment, it entrenches an extreme degree of inequality, with the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer, and it seems impossible within the system, to do anything about this, which is already a huge problem, and seems to be set to become very much worse.

I cannot really speak with any authority about the USA or Europe ... or the system of 'democracy' currently 'imposed' on Iraq for that matter. If speaking to people from the Arab or Muslim world, I would ask them specifically what kind of democracy ... or if not any kind of democracy, what other kind of political system ... they would favour, and what specific problems they have with the way the USA and other countries have interfered in Iraq or Afghanistan, or any other countries for that matter.


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 33

Ancient Brit

Can you have a democratic way of life without first undergoing subjugation ?
Having been born free is a truly democratic way life ever attainable ? At the end of the day democracy, once recognised and established, has to be defended, a defence has to be organised and an organisation needs a leaders. Chiefs, indians and tribes will always defend their 'rights' and cause cracks in foundations. Isn't the biggest crack caused when' white man speaks with forked tongue and tries to impose democracy top down ?


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 34

Mister Matty

>tries to impose democracy

*sighs*.

See again why this is a nonsensical statement: You *cannot* impose democracy. If it's imposed then it cannot be democracy *by default*.

*Waits until he has to point this out yet again...*


Cracks in the Foundations

Post 35

Ancient Brit

Out of the mouths of babes.
Picking on words taken out of context and trying to impose your views on others, clearly confirms the point that democracy, if such a way of life truly exists, can not be implemented, induced or 'imposed' , top down.
Any attempt to do this will result in cracks. smiley - smiley


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