h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Maybe I should do likewise - Lil's Atelier is one of those h2g2 meeting places which has been around forever and which probably still harbours some of the original h2 spirit. The Forum has been a godsend too - people suggested I should start something similar when I first ranted about the dreadful condition of Ask, but I always thought that either Ask should be restored ot the Eds should create a new place for what Ask was originally meant to be.

I'm guessing that for some time after h2 was created it was mostly populated by people who had a common bond - the works of DNA. Even though it was always stated that this isn't a fan site, DNA and Hitchikers references were everywhere. Now it's rare to come across one.

I don't understand how anyone would understand what
this place is all about if they hadn't read Douglas
Adams, Gosho.

I first heard about this place on the telly (back in the days of TDV). I logged on and registered. It was perfectly obvious to anyone what it was about, regardless of whether you knew anything about the work of Adams.

I suppose the stuff I feel most jaded about in PR are (a) computer games reviews (b) histories of bands that never should have got out of the garage (c) accounts of New Age belief systems (d) forensic expositions of stratagems for coping with mundane situations and (e) idle musings on facets of human existence.

However, these entries sprout up like weeds. If there is a space to be filled they will fill it. The best remedy is to fill the space with something rather more worthy of the time and effort demanded of the Volunteers. If anything is going to save this community, it has to come from the grass roots. The RhGS is just the sort of thing that we should be encouraging. I suggest we simply ignore the rest.

FM

Everyone's complaining about no serious conversations, but you've got one going here Gosho

I've only been with H2G2 for 3 months and I agree with most of what you're all saying.

First off: I found the site from reading Salmon of Doubt, so I knew what it was about. However, it took me hours of messing about to find my way to DNA's thoughts about the site. I honestly cannot understand why there isn't a link to him on the Welcome Page and on the Front Page. Surely he is the reason we're all here?

After a couple of weeks of familiarising myself with H2G2 and working out how things worked, I was really disappointed. It is indeed full of inane blather and gossip. I almost gave it up as a waste of time at that point. But then - picking up on Felonius Monk's point - and following a bit of an online rant, I decided that the only way to get it back on track again was for people like me to do it. So I began to write Guide Entries, on issues that may not be amusing (sorry everybody!), but which are informative and useful (I hope).

I have joined the RHGS because I agree with its basis, but I also think there's a place for entries that explain the world around us - not just the places.

Finally, if people like you all leave H2G2, there will be nobody to comment on (and Peer at) entries that folk like me submit to the site. That would be such a loss, so please don't go. There are other folk out here - newcomers - who need your guidance, advice and experience.


F/b

"I don't understand how anyone would understand what this place is all about if they hadn't read Douglas Adams, Gosho."

One would think so Paul, but former Italic Ashley claims never to have read the books and I believe has not even heard HHGTTG on the radio although I'm ready to be corrected on that one.

Frenchbean, thank you for those kind words, although I think you flatter me and over-estimate my contributions, both ongoing and in the past, to h2g2 There are many Researchers who done much more than I have... some of them are still active Researchers

I have to admit that another contributing factor to my current frame of mind is the appalling standard of spelling, grammar, and English usage shown by a large number of the newer Researchers. I've been involved in a few other internet communities, whether they be mailing lists, message boards, whatever, and never come across it to such an extent. It's another rung down the ladder towards turning this place into just another chat site.

And I have to add that following this thread and this post F19585?thread=327866&post=4206590 I have finally given up and unsubscribed from Ask h2g2. I'm generally of the view that if you want to change something or keep it from changing you stay there and fight from within, but there are times when you simply have to admit that you're fighting a losing battle.

Gosho, I think I know where you're standing because that's precisely where I'm trying to recover from. My symptoms are/were: decline of enthusiasm, becoming sick of moving yet another piece of out of PR, not visiting Askh2g2 any more because there's nothing of any particular importance, plus the points already listed by Cefpret. The Writing Workshop still doesn't work, etc, etc. It's been ages ago that I wrote a haiku (that's supposed to tell you something). In retrospect, I guess the turning point was when I discovered there were two entries of a certain Uni project which had exactly the same contents, and nobody had noticed. I first noticed there was something going on with me when there were free picks on offer and I didn't feel an interest to take even one. Right now, I'm still *owing* one, and don't feel like fluffily asking for removal of all the crap that's cluttering PR.

Those of you who are still subscribed to Ask have a lot more patience than I do...

I was subscribed to it for approximately 2 or 3 days, during which time I spent an unreasonable amount of time unsubbing from numerous individual pointless conversations. The amount of time it takes for pages to load around here only added to the frustration... Was this a journal entry I was waiting so patiently to load? Something new on another page I'm subscribed to? No, it turned out to be yet another completly pointless, and not even mildly amusing convo on Ask!



~~~~~~~~~~~


As for only people who know about DNA and his writings being on this place, I'll admit that I originally signed up just to see what my kids were spending so much time on (hey, they were underage, I was just trying to keep tabs on what they were up to)... but it wasn't long before I read the h2g2 series, and I more recently read Salmon of Doubt, so I see where a lot of references on here have come from now.

Yes, I think you really do have to read the books to have any real understanding of what this site is supposed to be all about - and I say "supposed to be all about" rather than "what it truly *is* all about" because that goal is slipping away from us all too quickly.

Gosho and I joked about setting up a group called the Threadbare Tendency, as a counterpart to what we called the 'Fluffy Faction' within the Scouts group. Looks like it's been under our noses all along.

So how nasty can we be in PR when we come across total rubbish?

I sometimes avoid the junk over there just because I can't think of a polite way of saying, "take this turd and leave please."

Have you visited the Bus Shelter recently? That's where the turds tend to end up.

No I can't say I have. I must take a look

The Bus Shelter is one of my favourite places on h2g2, and you caught its flavour perfectly with that Tom Waits quote FM

"So how nasty can we be in PR when we come across total rubbish?"

I think you'll find that we all have rather different ideas about that -- most who have been scouts for long will tell you that dear FM and I tend to disagree on this point.

The guidelines I tend to hold myself to are:

1) No personal comments in PR at all. Myself, I think comments in PR by everyone should be about the *entry* and not about the *person*, and I think that as scouts, we should set an example for this, even when authors may be behaving with rather less decorum.

2) How friendly my comments about the entry are tend to vary directly in relationship with how cooperative the author is. Even if an entry is complete trash and should never have been submitted, I try to make my first posting under the assumption that they really are interested in doing the PR thing appropriately, but just need to be taught how. That doesn't mean that I never tell them things they don't want to hear, but I try to point out a handful of shortcomings at a time, rather than having the first response in a PR thread be a 100-line list of every single thing the author has done wrong. Truthfully, this isn't just about being nice -- I've realized over time that most authors are much quicker to fix things when you point out a few problems at a time, but may well become defensive or just give up if presented with a long list of negatives.

3) If an author is one of those who has written garbage but insists on keeping it in PR and simply arguing with reviewers rather than trying to improve the entry, I generally start to reply in more snippish and patronizing tones -- however, I still try to keep my comments on the topic of the entry, and not about the person him/herself. When/if authors reach the point of being abusive in the PR thread, I think it would be more effective if the first scout to see it just posted a comment stating the behavior was unacceptable, and everyone from there on out just ignored the thread.

In reality, this is generally not how it works. However, I have yet to see a nasty in PR improve their behavior as the result of having lots of people jump the thread and tell them what a stupid, asinine git they are -- but I have seen several people who have redoubled their efforts in response to such, as it tends to reinforce their feelings of being 'the persecuted one', which many seem to get off on.

But again, everyone has their own ideas on this issue. This is just my .

Hi all... interesting conversation.

I've come to the point that I don't know if I'm part of the solution or part of the problem...

I use h2g2 mainly because I enjoy it - not only to contribute to the guide. I help out the UnderGuide, which is the opposite of the EG. However, I'm also concerned about the EG, culminating when I saw absolutely no suitable entries at PR at one point! (that weren't already recommended) and like Number Six, I'm trying to think of new ways to help out the EG.


'tis why I've created A1310149


I wish someone could create a simple group for writing, where people can ask specific questions about writing for the Edited Guide. Anyone?

Hmmm.... I think ideas like groups for people writing historical or geographical entries are a good idea, but I think they may be more likely to reach people who are already writing top-shape entries, although possible encouraging them to write more than they would have otherwise, or to collaborate on entries that would be more difficult to write alone.

The only thing I've been able to think of that could feasibly make a difference in really encouraging "new blood" in writing quality, EG-ready entries would be some kind of one-on-one mentorship program. For example, there could be a page where a newbie could say, "Hi, I'm interested in writing entries about disgusting diseases," and someone like Me or Farlander could pop by and say "Oh great! I specialize in that - I'll be glad to take you on." Or "I have a rough draft, but I need some help figuring out if this meets the guidelines and how to do the GuideML."

And essentially adopt the newbie, helping them get the entry together, making sure it meets the guidelines, maybe teaching some GuideML if need be, giving the thumbs up when they think the entry is ready for PR, and then sticking around to lend a hand in the PR thread.

Obviously, this wouldn't do jack about the number of entries that are submitted to PR by people who can't be bothered to read the guidelines but think they know it all anyway. But, I do think it could potentially increase the number of people we have submitting quality stuff to PR, plus help get some mundane issues straightened out before PR. On a random (rather than systematic) basis, I have seen this type of thing work here on h2g2 before -- people who have topics they know a lot about, but need help with turning that info into a real guide entry, getting help from people who have some EG experience under their belt. Essentially, it's like a more personalized version of what the Writing Workshop was intended to be.

Essentially, it's like people who aren't currently contributing good stuff to PR can be split into 3 groups.

1) People who aren't interested in learning how to do things well, because they already think they are perfect. I really don't think there's jack we can do about these folks.

2) People who have absolutely no interest in ever writing an EG entry. Something I have a hard time getting my mind around, but clearly, such people exist in abundance.

3) People who are interested in writing an entry for the EG, but don't feel comfortable making those first steps alone.

Up until these last 6 months, I wouldn't have thought category #3 exists. But, I've been meeting more and more people (including some long time hootooers) who are interested, and motivated, but are worried that they wouldn't be able to do it because:

* They don't understand GuideML.
* They tried to submit an entry once, and was told it didn't meet the guidelines, and haven't worked up the nerve to try again.
* They've heard stories about the horrors of PR, and need some "hand-holding".
* They're convinced that no one would be interested, or that they would have to dumb it down too much, or that they wouldn't be able to write wittily enough, etc.

If you could take these folks, and add in the handful who habitually submit to PR, and do stick around to work on it, but still need more help than most simply "getting it", I think it might be worthwhile.

Admittedly, this type of thing would require some effort on the part of the 'adopter', and wouldn't be many people's piece of cake -- after all, some degree of fluffiness would probably be involved.

And it would also take some effort to steer the right kind of potential authors in the way of such a program.

The two of those together are why I haven't bothered doing anything with the idea thus far. I don't really know that anyone other than myself would be interested in such a thing, and I don't have any clear ideas on how we could get new authors to buy into it.

But, I'm keeping that brain churning, look for new ideas.


Mikey

I've got it a bit like Jodan, not knowing if I'm part of the problem. I mean, in spite of having created more than hundred h2g2 pages, I've never written a "real" entry. And I've sure contributed a lot of nonsense - many more posts consisting only of smileys than serious discussions. But I agree completely with every negative word said here. As for Edited Guide and PR I've had a footnote on my space for a few weeks telling that I can't be bothered to be embarrased about my missing contributions anymore. As for everything else... well, there might be a reason that this is my first post in five days. (I don't mean like last winter where I couldn't get online, now I'm at a computer for hours each day!) Of course it doesn't help that the loading times are worse than ever before.

I don't know... I guess the only thing that keeps me coming back is nostalgia. For God's sake - I *love* h2g2!!! I love what the site has done for my life (even if I don't mention sunny ), I love people I've met here (though I talk to little with most of them), I love the idea (that was) and I love the software. I would find it terrible not to have h2g2, but still I've thought many times whether I would - very egoistic - prefer it to be closed. Awful thought, but maybe - MAYBE - I would prefer a good memory to the degenerated site I fear we're travelling towards. Hmmm... that sounds more negative than it should!

Good post, Ottox.

I admit that I use H2G2 more for socializing than
for serious work. Still, I've enjoyed contributing
to joint entries like "Curries" and "Rivers" and
several others. I have bits and pieces of knowledge,
and would love to share them.

Even the conversations have potential for getting
information to a researcher who might need it for
a guide entry. Remember, the Internet itself got
started when academics realized that it would be great
to share information and data with each other.
Nothing wrong with that.

I know it looks like it's only socialization, but the conversations I love the most are the ones where the researchers create a fantasy scenario, building on it, adding to it, and taking on roles within the fantasy. But I prefer not limiting it to a set of rules that stifles creativity within the scenario for the sake of "continuity".

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

On an entirely unrelated note...

Are you still there Ottox? How come this bit of code isn't doing anything on my PS?