h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

... is a habit which appears to be growing of labelling a person as a Troll, and using this label as a short-hand to successfully prejudice others against them.

The so-called Troll is then ignored, silenced and depersonalised. I have participated in this group-think myself, and feel dirty for doing so.

I am increasingly of the opinion that it is not ok.

"listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story".

B

I'm uncomfortable with this too and appalled when I find myself getting drawn into it.
It seems that it's human nature not to have entirely grown out of such playground behaviour but I don't know what the answer/solution is.

I appear to have unwittingly set off a bomb in another thread - quite unintentional, I assure you.

Indeed, however part of the problem I think comes about as a result of the difficulty in getting hootoo's "Each post in isolation" moderation system to do anything about people who are trolling.

I do agree that it is lazy and dangerous to say:-

"I perceive this person to be trolling, therefore they are a troll, therefore everyone should ignore them"

The difficulty I think will come form finding a way that as a community we can deal with trolling behavior with out doing the kind of thing Ben is tlaking about....

The each post in isolation system only applies to the Moderators: the first layer of the system. If someone is trolling and you wish to alert the italics you can simply reply to your moderation e mail and say that you believe that in the context of this thread this post is offensive.

If someone is a troll in one thread does that mean that they are incapable of acting resonably in another thread?

Or is it a case of 'give a troll a bad name and hang him'?

It seems that in the current climate on h2g2 would be impossible for someone who was once accused of being a troll to ever act any other way.

I'm aware that I'm capable of taking over a 'Forum' thread with either evangelical vegetarian views, or revolutionary socialist ones. I sometimes have to make a concerted effort *not* to troll.

I wouldn't worry Teuchter, that was a bomb waiting to happen.


h2g2 does seem to have a rather wide definition of what a troll is.

I agree that someone "trolling" on one thread does not make them a Troll who should be ignored everywhere.

On the other hand I do from time to time find it frustrating when someone does nothing but post offensive things but seemingly no action gets taken.

Now the pattern of behavior that B is talking about I recognise (pretty sure I too have engaged in it) but anything like this will always (IMHO) tap into the wider issues in relation to moderation and ocnduct. Dontcha think?

I think it's useful to look at our own behaviour in relation to people we don't like or who annoy us. I raised this issue yesterday on another thread but not many got it. The point I was making is that we so often focus on the behaviour of the 'offending' person but rarely look at what we ourselves are doing. I wonder if there is some function in the community that certain unpopular people fulfill. I called them outcasts but I'm not sure that is the right word.

But it seems that such people do become catalysts of some sort for a collective reaction that can be out of proportion to the 'offense' (although obviously not always, and examining the collective reaction doesn't deny that the person may be incredibly annoying or abrasive or whatever).

For some reason this week I ended up more interested in the behaviour and motivations of the people reacting than of the 'troll' or outcast.

Out of interest Kea what thread are we talking about here? I am interested in taking a look.

Is the word 'pariah', Kea?

I think that this tendency to treat a member/s of society as pariahs is a very normal, but undesirable, human trait.

Thank goodness we also find kindness, concern, humour and affection within our community.

I'll get you a link

Starts here and goes for a couple of pages.

F16034?thread=397255?thread=&skip=10640&show=20#p13286936

>>Thank goodness we also find kindness, concern, humour and affection within our community.<<

There are times when this is distinctly lacking*. The current situation, of which I'm sure most people are aware, particularly so. Interesting for me was that after I got to express my frustration with the situation in a thread (the Ask premod one), the next day I was able to see the researcher much more humanely and find the place of compassion again.


* except the humour which seems a constant. I suspect that part of the attraction of the collective ganging up is that hootooers do their cruelty so wittily.

It seems to me that 'trolling' is quite a specific offense that is explained in the house rules.

Yes, I agree that on occasion some researchers have been accused of trolling when in fact they were simply being disagreeable.

Am I wrong in saying that trolling is being deliberately and repeatedly disruptive and/or offensive on a thread?

As for those who are not adding anything to the debate or discussion at hand, but are simply posting nonsense in order to wind up other researchers on a particular thread. Would this also be seen as trolling or just being 'pains-in-the-butt'?

I'd say that if the intention is simply to wind people up then it *is* trolling. Meanwhile, some researchers tend to wind others up without it being intentional.

How do we tell the difference?


az

I think that is the question az I know that I've seen people accused of troling when I though it was just their communication style. That's why I would prefer that the word 'troll' got used sparingly, and after some time had passed.

Obviously occasionally there are people who *only troll. But most people that troll here seem to do a mix of trolling and otherwise normal posting.

A related issue is the difference between a Troll and 'a d---head I don't like talking to.' Some people fail to recognise the difference.

If you meet a group of people in a pub, and one of them you don't like, then you try and avoid engaging with that person. If you start an argument, you risk a fight.

But here in cyberland, there's a tendency to wade in fists flying - which kinda ruins the party.

There's a difference, it seems, between saying that someone is trolling, and labelling them as "a troll".

I just want to clarify that I wasn't meaning the 'pariah' (thanks Teuchter) I referred to is a troll. I brought up that situation because it is similar to the one Ben mentions in post 1, where someone gets labelled as a [insert judgement of choice] and then this is used by the community to define who the person is.


I agree that it's useful to differentiate between calling someone a troll and naming trolling the behaviour.

I have to say that (despite repeated requests to do so) I never ignore a 'troll', instead I challenge what they're saying and tell them why it's wrong... one day I'll even get through to them.

The problem is that it's a double-edged sword. If you *do* respond and/or challenge them they'll spout drivel and tell you you're wrong/stupid/gay[1] or threaten you, but the thing is if you *don't* respond they think that what they're saying is okay because there's nobody standing against them.

[1]Yes, really... oh, tig... what a silly little boy you are. I think I frightened him by saying that I'm happy to bat for both teams.

Came across this, wandering around the site...

And was interested, because I am increasing coming to the opposite conclusion.

I think this site is on the whole, fairly patient and generous. Much more so than say Wikipedia, or slashdot, or most specialised discussion groups, just to quote a few.

I'm a little concerned that we will end up as a refuge for the dull and the ignorant, because I don't think the site defends itself very well against the sort of subtle 'drowning in mediocrity' that it's currently subjected to.

But that might be a reflection of my own lack of tolerance for that kind of contribution more than anything else. And I appreciate that the perception of both dullness and ignorance is largely subjective.

sprout

sprout, I too wandered into this thread and I tend to agree with you as well. This site is on the whole very forgiving and friendly compared to many others. I found the entire *bomb* idea to be distasteful to me though and I have grown to either ignore it or steer clear of it. *Troll* is another label I try to steer clear of, a lesson I learned in the old LD/Digibox battles.

I think the vast majority of members here are just enjoying themselves and trying to avoid too much confrontation. Exceptionally strongly opinionated individuals will always have problems with each other no matter what their level of intelligence, communication skills or courtesy.