h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I was taking time to think before I gave a considered response to Abbi. Now I've been working too late @ home so I'm probably not at my most cogent...but what the heck.

Yes, at the end of the day, I'm happy to accept the fundamentalist label. I'm a fundamentalist for rationalism. Post empirical enlightenment rationalism. I can't see any sense in invoking the supernatural for any purpose - whether good, bad, or simply to explain the unknown.

Now - I don't mean to be harsh to good people. JEllen, for example, is clearly a good person who takes great solace from her UU church. (In fact, as with the Bahai faith and some of the Reform shuls, I have a lot of time for the inclusiveness and community of the UUs). No - I reserve my harshness by the many, many, many people who are inspired towards badness by their faiths. Actually, I argue that bad people justify their badness through faith and vice versa.

But, but, but...If a bad person tries to justify badness via faith, then neither you nor I can argue against them. They are inherently right, within their own hermetic irrationality. Our only argument can be 'But you can't use your faith as a justification because *it* is irrational.' And if we argue that, we have to apply the same standards of rationality to the faiths of the good people. ('Sorry...you're all very nice people...but Jesus still doesn't want you for sunbeams' )

Now, on the FFF, this left me in an awkward position. I'm actually very interested in religions. Always have been. And I'd quite like to be able to discuss them from a viewpoint of sincere scepticism - from the viewpoint that they're all, obviously, irrational nonsense. And that's my sincerely held position. I got off to a very bad start when I described paganism and druidism as 'Dungeons and dragons taken way too seriously.' This flippant remark caused offence and I think I've since been judged as a nastier person than I am. (If Abbi was around at the time, she may have a different perspective. Maybe I too was clumsy).

However, I must sterss that I'm tolerant of *believers*, if not beliefs. To use an old cliche, some of my best friends are religious. Provided folk are decent, the fact that they have a bonkers belief system is no more important to me than that they have apalling taste in music. (Mind you...I was once set up on a disatrous blind date with a woman who said that UB40 were her favourite reggae band...)

Anyway, in the end I decided that my fundamentalism was mainly incompatible with the fluffy tolerance of the FFF and I got bored with it. I still visit once in a while (posted today, in fact). In an interesting twist, my most savage FFF adversary is still on my friends list. I think he's a decent bloke but bonkers. He thinks I'm a blinkered fool.

Sorry...none of this will have made sense. It's off to bed I go.

I agree with your summation of your views on religion there almost to a "T", Edward. I haven't got time for a long posting now, but will tomorrow, so I'll attempt to come up with my own arguments for/against then.

What I do have time to do, Edward is let you know that Jackie Wilson says I'm in heaven (when you change your tagline).

*puts up poster of Jocky Wilson in error*

I agree with more or less everything you both say about religion, by the way. And, of course, it makes my heart go boom-boom-boom...

That made sense Ed.
It is more clear and generous towards some room for investigation and mystery or wonderment than I had noticed in your posts before.
Maybe that is because you are tired. It's less emotional so it comes across (to me) as more rational.

The last time it seemed intensely emotional and bordering on insulting. Since this is pc's journal I dropped it.
I learned if things stay the same you usually get another chance to bring something up. Since you and PC brought it up again I thought it was OK to venture in.

I did not read the FFF thread you spoke of. I probably won't due to lack of energy unless more feedback is wanted.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Things seemed more approachable but I realise that could have more to do with my mood too.

It answered a lingering question so I'm content.
Happy Trails to you!

Just to be polite I want to let PC know that when the religion bashing thing starts, I will go quiet until the topic changes.

I hate fundamentalism of all kinds, people trying to change others views, because 'they know better' is offensive to me.

If you want to be scathing of religion and other threads don't welcome you, why not start your own?

Wellll...I suppose the reason why I don't start my own forum is twofold:

a) I'm not interested in attracting the wrong sorts of people - those who bash individual religions. 'Some Christians deny evolution/ Some muslims bomb buses...therefore religion is silly/ bad.' Those are facile and boring arguments.

b) I *do* want people with knowledge of/ interst in religion to join in. I'm after sincere debate. Views need to be challenged if they are to develop. I'd genuinely love a religious person to come back at me with 'I hear what you're saying, but you're wrong, because...'. Unfortunately, though, nobody seems to be able to get beyond the immediate perception that I'm out to cause gratuitous offence.

No points for guessing the Van 'the' Morrison/ Dexy's tagline, though. Tooooo easy!

no disrespect to any religeon or person..this is only meant has humour


the last bloke to impersonate me, they nailed on a cross, they couldn't find the wood to fit me! and they never did them face first




for those who don't understand, my p/space explains

Hey everyone!

Kaz, I appreciate your warning and can assure you that anything I'd say on my journal in regards to my thoughts/feelings on religion, wouldn't be presented as 'I'm right, you're wrong" or trying to change anyone. I'll have plenty of other convos to debate that in!

But I also can't convolute or sugar-coat my views simply to avoid potentially hurting someone else's feelings. That's not what conversation is about. While I'd never *deliberately* insult or ridicule another person's- leastwise a friend's- beliefs, I can't pretend that I don't wish for them what I have experienced to be a more logical, rational perspective. I can't help that. But I can and will try to express it as considerately as possible.

I feel the same way about religious people, or people who have a belief system, as Edward describes. It's not the individual that I have the problem with, and a good many people of faith are good people who live by the tenets of their faith. I can respect that.

My problem with religion differs vastly from my problem with faith in a divine force of some kind. My problem with faith in a divine force lies purely in that ALL of my life experience, every bit of scientific data I've studied or had presented to me, and human nature itslf, all give evidence to there being no such divine force. The Abrahamic faiths, even more so- these belief systems are based on texts that have long been proven to be historically inaccurate and mostly metaphorical. I'd personally as soon make my life decisions based on scientific fact than on a work of fiction.

My problem with organized religion is threefold. Most importantly, (1), organized religion serves mostly as a tool by which those "in charge" of organizing or maintaining the organization of said religion to manipulate the masses, controlling their behavior while taking a good chunk of their personal assets from them. Not to mention giving the power-hungry a divine decree to go out and either convert the unbeliever, of if they won't cooperate, slaughter the infidel!

(2) would be that, IMHO, religious faith is a crutch, much like smoking cigarettes, using drugs, or drinking, only religion is far more harmful in the log run for a multitude of reasons. Religion relinquishes all of a person's personal accountability/responsibility. Can't find good work? Don't bother looking through the classifieds or networking with various companies/agencies. Pray/cast a spell/what have you. Have a problem you can't cope with? Pray to Jesus and he'll make it all go away. Poppycock!!

(3) is that I seriously question the integrity of religious leaders, they being the ones who orchesrate and organize these religions. This would extend to some degree to those who fashion their own "religion", be that a sect that's a variant of a larger congregation, a "solitary practitioner" of earth-based or pantheistic religion, or a flat-out "cult". I question the motives of anyone who could clearly see that there is no scientific basis for belief in god(s)/divinity/a supreme power, etc., and yet still set out to deceive others into following in their footsteps. And truth be told, I also wonder why the people I know, who are otherwise rational and intelligent, would believe in such stuff.

This means that I WANT my friends who adhere to some sort of faith to explain to me where their beliefs come from, what it is that they have experienced that makes them believe what they do. I don't automatically assume that they are all weak-minded or delusional.

Some people I have known followed a certain faith because they were taught it was so, and continued into adulthood blindly believing and never questioning. Those are the people I wish to challenge. The folks I know, like Kaz or JEllen for example, who adhere to a belief system that makes sense to them, these are the people I want to simply explain their views and not actually challenge their thinking per se. I would like to think that we could have a mutual respect for each other's ways of thinking, and barring that, at least a mutual surrender.

Incidentally, I should add that the only time I get hot under the collar and might pick at a person for their faith, is when it encroaches on MY livelihood and well-being, or that of others who do not adhere to the same belief system.

Examples:
(1) when fundamentalists of any sort try to dictate or legislate their own morality, either through enforcement or prohibitive measures. i.e., preventing gay marriage because of homophobia, the efforts to restrict/prevent early terminations of pregnancy due a lack of understanding of biology, placing religious artifacts in public/government buildings, orcing religious education or "god concepts" on children in publicly funded schools. Etc, etc, ad infinitum.

(2) when fundamentalists of any sort use violence or threats of vliolence to manipulate/scare/exterminate those who don't share their beliefs

(3) when friends/family members who adhere to some faith structure or another force me to particpate in their ceremonies, make me sit thorugh prayers at meals, etc.

Absolutely! Not-getting-hot-under-the-collaredness except where it's deserved is what I'm trying to express. I'm always genuinely sorry when good people are hurt by my sincerely and honestly expressed views.

I'll grant that I am partly to blame by the way I express my views. I *do* find religions, in various degrees funny/ silly/ delusional/infantile/ misguided. Possibly it's impolite of me to say so, in the same way that it would be impolite of me to sneer if my dinner host were to put on a Dido CD. On the other hand...there's honesty. What's the appropriate response when one's host says 'Isn't Dido just incredible?'

PC I have so much negative stuff in my life at present that I do not feel the need to get involved in a convo which will stress me out. Nothing against you, you talk as you wish, but I need to avoid stress at present if I am to cope with the stuff I have been going through.

To emphasise my seriousness, I have been thinking of sharp objects a few times this week. Whenever that happens I know it is time to dump all the negative stuff I can and get back to basics and try to centre myself and gain some stregth back. I am avoiding stressful convos to protect myself. Hope that makes sense.

You talk about whatever you want though, I am quite capable of ignoring stuff and coming back later. Don't let me stop you from discussing whatever you want.

Kaz, stop thinking things like that(objects)my friends mean more to me then letting them think like that, please take a smack on the back of your hand, from meI can't reach, please self administer for me

Don't worry after 22 years of depression I have developed some coping strategies. I will be fine, its just a case of taking the feelings seriously and doing what I need to do, to feel safe, centred, strong etc etc.

Kaz, I appreciate that you care enough about me to ignore the aspects of discussion you're too stressed to get involved with right now, but that you're still willing and able to discuss other stuff with me otherwise.

And you can talk about the negative stuff with me, if not here then by email if you require some privacy. And I'm keeping a close watch on your jurnal for updates and signs of how you are doing.

Also, please, when you think about potentially hurting yourself, try to remember that negative stuff is always present in one way or another, but the hurt need not destroy you completely. Some stuff is temporary, some stuff not. But my friendship is one thing you can always count on.

But when you think about hurting yourself, no other thoughts are there. I realise its a very selfish act, but it seems to offer some release. I never want to kill myself btw, just sometimes take control of the pain and direct it myself.

Talking about this is helpful, but maybe we should have a convo just for it, so I don't disturb your regulars!

last sentence, I too agree with, mate-buddy-pal-chum-friend
I care

not "that" last sentence
this one:-
But my friendship is one thing you can always count on.

As I said, I don't want to hurt people.

I therefore volunteer to move any continuation of this discussion over to my space. See here: A4497492

Take care, Kaz. I hope the pain goes away soon.

By the way... Geno?