h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>>Regarding choice - IMO, religion is man-made but belief is inherent<<

I don't disagree with you there SWL, I'm quite a big fan of belief and to some degree even faith. My problem is with organised religions, sets of rules created by some person claiming some massive authority from an entity it is utterly implausible to believe in - the con of it all.

I guess it'd depend upon what the outside observer judged things on - to someone who was truly impartial all they'd see atheists as are people who only go on what eveidence they have and reasonable deductions from that evidence.

I'm sorry SWL, but that isn't fair. There is a huge world of a difference between expressing a difference of opinion in a polite manner, and making a decision that doesn't harm anybody, and commiting genocide.

Especially when we live in a society that is mostly open to free debate, where other viewpoints and perspectives can be expressed.

<>

No they can't. Witch hunts are a national pastime. Try being a Public Sector worker and saying something not on the government-approved news-speak list. People are barred from jobs because of their beliefs and there are researchers on hootoo who applaud it.

It doesn't take much to make people turn on each other. The slightest difference is enough. Yes, concentration camps are at the end of the line but the road towards them start with small steps.

Is this the tolerant society we want? Free to believe what you want as long as nobody finds out? "Believe in any sky fairy you want mate, but if I find out about it I'm going to treat you as second class."

Oh Bod, what have I started?

To reply to the general thrust of the last few posts:

I believe that gods were invented to explain the unexplainable. As the unexplainable was explained gods were perpetuated as a way of controlling people people.

We have now explained enough of the unexplained to have no need for gods, and the media is doing a fine job of controlling us (just think of the air time given to Britney Spears' hair shave).

I'm dismayed that people can't see that gods are part of our heritage but no longer relevant.

I differ in opinion from HonestIago in that I don't care whether an individual follows a religion or 'has faith'. I don't understand why belief in a deity should be given more credence (yes, again, I know) than belief in Santa.

>>It doesn't take much to make people turn on each other<<

It does - it takes a heck of a lot to make people turn on each other. It doesn't just take little steps, it takes thousands of little steps. I don't like the way the traditional media in this country works, but there are other media, like this, like blogs, like mobiles and texting, like plain old-fashioned talking.

The situation that arose in the former Yugoslavia arose because it got to a point where it wasn't possible to express a contrary opinion on any sort of scale.

>>Free to believe what you want as long as nobody finds out<<

Most emphatically no - that's not the sort of society I want and it's not a system I operate. If someone wants to have a belief that a certain god/political party/ideology will cure all of man's ills then let them express it. But as an individual I have a right to choose what terms I want to deal with that person on. My belief is that if someone can argue rationally, passionately and have some form of evidence for their beliefs, then they deserve my respect regardless of what those beliefs are.

It all comes down to choice and respect. A person is free to choose their beliefs and they have the right to be respected because they are people and be treated with a level of dignity equal to everyone else. I have a right to make decisions on how to interact with that person based upon their choices but it is just my own personal belief.

I don't have a choice about respecting anybody, I should just do it - to me, this is tolerance.

And I really need to get myself to bed. Cheers SWL - it's been good fun.

I really can't believe that people have listened to musuc and now see that Dire Straights are irrelivent, but a lot of people would disagree.

Gods, or rather dietys or perhaps more accurately the 'devine' (SP) are created in each and every society and culture known to modern 'man', it is viewed as a way of being able to pay 'homage' to, or 'reverence' to, or 'respect' to the 'society or 'culture' itselft, though means of an instrument that is not necessarily something within the society or culture itself, in the same way I don't kill someone who is a fan of dire straights before something, lettuce say more musical, I don't necessarily kill someone who believes that all imigrents are coming here to take our jobs women and kebab meat, and I don't kill someone who believes in teh giant alkasesa and the second coming of the great hoovery one, as with 90% more plus of people I've ever met if there religious, vegetarian (I have a big deal whole heck of a lot more issues with vegies than religious types) then I've never yet come across anyone for whom their religion is anything more prominant in the way thery act, and interact with me than any one of a number ofg other often contridicotry influences on their life upto that point anyhow, why get nasty with the religious sorts, when theres far more 'work' out ther to be done kulling all the ignorant sods who run governments.

You know what, Roy... I cannot continue to take you seriously. Anyone who avoids talking to someone just because they have a bible on their desk, or pray every day is, to me, just as bad as those 'theists' who you are against.

Oh, and calling people 'lunatics' just because they have faith? Grow up.

Mr.Dreadful says it all for me frankly.

I'm somewhat surprised at you Roy, you "left" hootoo as a result of seeing, what was in your eyes homophobic comments on sexuality, yet you post the same derogatory and inflammatory type of post calling folk lunatics for believing in something you don't. If you'd directed your comments to the 'fanatics' that kill and maim in the name of religion then you would have had a reasonable debate on the matter rather than the claim that all religion is followed by lunatics which no doubt has caused offence to a lot of people.

ST.

I really shouldn't come on hootoo when I'm drunk. I don't actually avoid talking to people of faith, or question their sanity. I do feel disappointed when I find out that someone has faith because I think the world should be moving on, but I know that I really have to get my head out of my @rse over the religion thing.

I was being a pillock last night. Sorry.

I'm going to delete this journal entry. I know the conversation will still be here, but the entry was pathetic so I'm ditching it.

Tut. Drunkenness displeases the Lord.

Now don't do it again. *wags finger*

I blame Hammerfall. If they'd been any good I would have still been in The Electric Ballroom at the time!

Typical, just decided to join in the debate and it's closing time

T'was another interesting thread, Roy. Have a look at A8272172, especially pint 7.

Gah, I got here too late too! But I'll put in my tuppence anyway

Roy, extreme atheism really is just as bad as being a bible basher. I also think organised religion in this day and age is a load of old poo but I also respect people's beliefs. I have a good friend who is an evangelical Christian for example, but she wouldn't dream of preaching her beliefs to others; come to think of it, she's one of the most level-headed people I know, Christian or not. I'm of the view as long as people don't push their religion onto me I won't push my non-religion onto them.

Therefore I take great pleasure in telling JWs to bugger off when they come anywhere near me

Echoing some of the above...


My best friend is a Christian. (And I'm not, in case you didn't know)

We were best mates before she became one, and have remained so through many many life changes. BTW Roy, she's also very active in gay Christian rights, so if you have any serious questions I can fire them her way.

She wrote an article once about how friendship between Christians and non-believers works - I must see if I can put my hands on it.

>especially pint 7<

...after which point(pint) you stop yourself from posting

A Freudian error

*appears out of nowhere* hi... You dont know me yet, but your title caught my eye on a friend's page...

I just wanted to chuck in a couple of pennies...

Firstly, I believe that we haven't explained nearly enough, nearly enough... Though I do think that those who would argue that as evolution is 'just a theory' and therefore the creation of the universe just for us 2007 years ago is a likely option are slightly unhinged *to my science-educated mind*. I am very aware that I am biased and as a biased subject cannot remove myself entirely from the scenario. I would still put a 99% chance on it that us weird science types are more likel to be right. But I am a believer in something else that we and science cannot explain. I'm fairly sure that people have experiences that cannot and probably will not (should not?) ever be 'solved' or 'proven' by science... Doesnt mean they dont happen, it's just the interpretation that can be divisive. For isntance, Near death experiences are fairly common... The white light... Is it god? St Peter? an angel? a white horse? a star? Maybe it's a giant meringue, I believe it depends on your spiritual education.

Now, as for judging people according their choices, I have a good friend who seems pretty intelligent. He's funny, witty, a sci-fi geek like myself, likes a bit of heavy metal on occasion... and all-round well adjusted character I thought. Now I find out he's in the army. As infantry. I still to this day cannot understand how someone so seemingly intelligent and informed would volounteer to be, to my mind, cannon fodder. Now he's training to be a surveying engineer in the army, he's not a frontline foot-soldier, I can understand him being there but his job challenged my ideas of the 'usual meathead' types that I knew at school who joined the army for lack of any ambition (or wish to enjoy life, I thought). I still dont get it. it confuses me and makes no sense. But I know that that's my problem. Sorry if any of that last bit has offended anyone, I'm being honest about my own feelings towards individuals and thoughts about general types of people.

Much love RH X