h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Ugh. I knew when I saw how many posts had popped in here over the weekend that the usual trolls had to have taken over. Sure enough, there they are. At least it made for fast skimming, because anything by those two or addressed to them could be passed over quickly. I think that left about 25 posts out of 145 to actually read.

Anyway, I noticed that old fallacy of atheism being a religion was back there somewhere. Atheism is to religion as sleeping is to sports. Checking the definition that was offered earlier:

Religion:
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. - The exact opposite of atheism.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. - If you don't have the belief, you don't have the system.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. - Again based on definition 1. You can't be in a religious order if you have no religion.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. - Atheist leader? Where?
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. - This last definition is metaphorical, such as: Football is a religion to him. It actually has nothing to do with the topic of atheism.

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As far back as I can remember, I have always been against war, abortion, and capital punishment. To me, it's a matter of consistency, and of justice. Back in the 1970s, I was in a group in NZ called 'Feminists for Life' and thanks to a friend, I joined the English group of the same name. Mostly, it seemed to me that abortion is almost never necessary, and this was reinforced by the people I knew who had abortions - some of them seemed to use abortion as a sort of after-the-fact contraception. This was an injustice to the child. As my mother had her last child (my second brother) at 43, which was very rare at the time (1961) and she had some problems which she was ready to ignore for the sake of having a child (she had health problems which at one time meant she had to have radiotherapy) I didn't then amd never have, looked kidnly on people having abortions for lesser reasons.
I had a child at 18 and (not willingly) gave him up for adoption. I was lucky to find him when he was 14, a year or so before the law was changed to allow such meetings - facilitate them, even. I have not suffered one tenth as much as the women who have had abortions they regretted, and given that I am not an unloving person, I don't think I am unusual in that.
Then, I 'got religion' and not until the 1990s, did I ever hear abortion mentioned in church! It was not a religious issue at all. Not then...
In the 1990s, I met a woman who had been talked out of having an abortion by clinic protestors. I met her againat the same school my son went to, and where her daughters went. Her baby's father had been deported as an overstayer. Her son (the one she nearly aborted) had been diagnosed with intellectual handicaps.
I met her yet again, when I was doing my diploma in teaching people with disabilities. Ben, her son, had just been the subject of a TV documentary. He was autistic, epileptic, exhibited challenging behaviours, the whole shtick. He died about a month later, at 10 years old. But at no stage, ever, did she ever regret having Ben! The effect on her, and her daughters, didn't matter as much as the time she had with him, which she truly valued. Her only problem was that she felt she hadn't been given as much assistance by the Departments of Education and Heakth as she was enititled to.

Interesting story Della

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Then, I 'got religion' and not until the 1990s, did I ever hear abortion mentioned in church! It was not a religious issue at all. Not then... <<

Abortion has always been a religious issue historically.

In NZ SPUC (anti-abortion lobby) has been around since the early 70s and they certainly have a strong religious base. Maybe it was just more noticeable where I was living than where you were?


>> But at no stage, ever, did she ever regret having Ben!<<

Likewise I know women who have had abortions who feel sadness but not regret. And there are women who don't even feel that sad. For some women having an abortion is a huge relief.

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For the people that believe that abortion is murder, I'd like to know what punishment women and doctors should receive. Should it be the same as other murderers?

<<It was not a religious issue at all. Not then... <<

Abortion has always been a religious issue historically.

In NZ SPUC (anti-abortion lobby) has been around since the early 70s and they certainly have a strong religious base. Maybe it was just more noticeable where I was living than where you were?>>

I am just telling you what I experienced. Abortion, like homosexuality, was never mentioned in any of the churches I attended, Brethren, Salvation Army or Anglican. It is my experience that proponents of these things want to believe that Christans are more concerned (obessed even,) with them than they are.

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Well, see, to me that's sad in itself!

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I believe it's murder, but I also believe that women who have abortions often believe they have no choice. Often, also, they have been subjected to savage pressure from parents, husbands or boyfriends. The women should not be punished very severely if at all, especially if they are under 18, or if they have health issues (especially mental health) - only if they are 'repeaters', and there are many of those. But those who run clinics, especially if they are the profit-making chains as exist in thre USA, it's very much another matter.

So Della,

It's interesting that you were anti-abortion before becoming religious. I'd like to ask a question about that.

At the time before you got religion, did you think all abortion was wrong? What about at very early terms, say, within the first week of pregnancy?

I'm asking because people who view *all* abortion as wrong often come from the religious standpoint that views anything after conception as human and sacred. This doesn't apply to you it seems. So the question becomes this: Why do you believe/think that a one-week ball of undifferentiated human cells is a human, seeing as you came about this decision without religion?



Ste

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I am just telling you what I experienced. Abortion, like homosexuality, was never mentioned in any of the churches I attended, Brethren, Salvation Army or Anglican. It is my experience that proponents of these things want to believe that Christans are more concerned (obessed even,) with them than they are.
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Fair enough to your personal experience. I agree with what you say about most religions not being focussed on abortion. It's definitely the fundamentalist element.

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Well, see, to me that's sad in itself!
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It's very sad to me that women's lives are such that they feel having an abortion is such a relief. But I am glad for the women that have no emotional stuff to deal with about it.


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I believe it's murder, but I also believe that women who have abortions often believe they have no choice. Often, also, they have been subjected to savage pressure from parents, husbands or boyfriends. The women should not be punished very severely if at all, especially if they are under 18, or if they have health issues (especially mental health) - only if they are 'repeaters', and there are many of those. But those who run clinics, especially if they are the profit-making chains as exist in thre USA, it's very much another matter.
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So for clinic staff, and 'repeaters' who commit murder, what should their punishment be? Prison? Life sentences?

And those who are young, or with mental health issues, should they be treated the same as other young murderers or murderers with mental health problems? If they are not to be treated the same does that mean that some murder is worse than others, or that some murder has mitigating circumstances?

same does that mean that some murder is worse than others, or that some murder has mitigating circumstances?>>>>>

murder , its still someone being killed , but it differ's from someone meaning to kill someone than someone who does not mean to kill a person and it goes to far.

So abortion is worse than some other kinds of murder. How should abortionists and women be punished?

http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-1/544/544_02_GabrielFlores.shtml>>

Not sure what you point is in posting that link.The woman in that article didn't go to prison for having an abortion (or for murdering a foetus). She went to prison because she's not a licensed doctor.

In NZ the legislation that made women performing their own abortions illegal has been repealed.

Cheers Della, I think it was interesting partially because I understand some of what you're saying.

As I've said I'm male and gay, so the chances of me making the decision are vanishingly slim, but if I did there's a good chance I'd choose to keep the ball of cells that will eventually become a kid, or have it adopted if I couldn't keep it for financial or emotional reasons. Just my point of view.

This does not mean that I would in any way object to anybody having an abortion, if someone feels that it is the right choice for them I have no right to tell them otherwise, I just don't feel I'd make the choice myself.

The question was post 214 on the abortion thread. Would you rather make the girl (and her kid) suffer a lifetime of emotional trauma because of one stupid mistake? If you have the capacity to answer do it on the abortion thread not here.>>>>>

so if she had a abortion she would have to live with that too on her mind , silly mistake , what about the women who have kids willy nilly with tom dick or harry , are we making easy for them , mistake's not .

"As far back as I can remember, I have always been against war, abortion, and capital punishment. To me, it's a matter of consistency, and of justice. Back in the 1970s, I was in a group in NZ called 'Feminists for Life' and thanks to a friend, I joined the English group of the same name. Mostly, it seemed to me that abortion is almost never necessary,



I agree with most of that its just the word necessary. I mean in some late term terminations it is necessary to do so when the ongoing pregnancy will almost certainly harm or even kill the mother. Id say that it makes some cause for keeping terminations avalable wouldnt you?

"some of them seemed to use abortion as a sort of after-the-fact contraception. This was an injustice to the child. As my mother had her last child (my second brother) at 43, which was very rare at the time (1961) and she had some problems which she was ready to ignore for the sake of having a child (she had health problems which at one time meant she had to have radiotherapy) I didn't then amd never have, looked kidnly on people having abortions for lesser reasons.

Once again I agree there are people getting terminations for what you and I might find trivial reasons, thing is we CANT see into peoples heads so we CANT see what the person is REALLY going through. Even if some people fess up to using termination as late in the day contraception should we be closing that option down to people who REALLY do feel that termination is the only option for them?


"I had a child at 18 and (not willingly) gave him up for adoption. I was lucky to find him when he was 14, a year or so before the law was changed to allow such meetings - facilitate them, even. I have not suffered one tenth as much as the women who have had abortions they regretted, and given that I am not an unloving person, I don't think I am unusual in that.

My mum had me when she was 16 and I was adopted by my grandparents so I feel a lot of empathy with your situation. My mum and I saw a lot of each other and I know how much it meant to her, as I grew up. So I can understand your need to break the law and potentially criminalise yourself over your son.

Cant you see how other people who's feelings are *different* to yours would be sufficiently moved to break the rules and seek illegal, unsafe, unregulated terminations if the laws were changed?


"Her baby's father had been deported as an overstayer. Her son (the one she nearly aborted) had been diagnosed with intellectual handicaps.

A tough spot for anyone but some people cant face their situations, reducing their options is not a good thing to do. This woman changed her mind so that in my book is fine. Its good that ALL of her family got something positive out of her sons short life. However there are thousands of children who are born who wouldnt because contraceptionis unavailable or fails...thousands of children who are orphaned beacuse their one remaing parent dies during childbirth. For these children the consequnce of there being no acess to free, safe and leagal terminations are overwhelmingly negative. Things are much different for the majority of people in the world who happen not to live in wealthy developed nations like mine and yours Della. This woman may have thought she got less support from the state than she was entitled to, in some places there is no help *at all*.

I wish it were different but that is the way the world is. It is not just made up of the women you knmow who live in the country you come from.

one love

I am against abortion but with reading on here ive decided that actually its the womans choice,

Sorry I onlly seam ta talk when Ime drunk but it seams like ,Its ok iff a man wears a hat the night before no problem n if a woman washes her handbag out the next morning she gets 20yrs n he goes to play the next night, thats not fair ,sorry what was the subject ? atheists I believe.Apps for any spelling mistake.

you only speak when you are drunk?? stay sober and then we wont have to hear from you

Della: <>

I've never seen a brush fire in Southern California, so therefore brush fires don't happen here, and people who are support brush fires want to believe that Californians are more concerned with them than they should be.

Oh, wait... I forgot that everything you say is the exact opposite of truth, so I'd better translate that statement of yours I quoted:

"Abortion, like homosexuality, is a constant topic of discussion among every church I've ever attended. It is my experience that proponents of these things want to believe that Christians are ignoring (purposely) these topics instead of obsessing on them."

Ah, that makes more sense.

I think you're being a bit harsh. It appears to me that Della has been very careful in recent posts to specifically say 'in my experience' or similar, rather than state opinions as fact.

I agree.