h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

One thing that particularly amuses me here (if there is humour to be found in this god awful debate and referendum) it is that I post on several sites these days and this is not the first time I've seen the phrase 'swivel eyed loons' bandied about. Love it :D

(reply to Incog)

One way to look at it though is if you were old enough to vote in the first referendum, you're no spring chicken now (to put it bluntly). The vote is for young people's future: I firmly believe they are better in than out. Elderly people voting for out won't have to live with the long term consequenses.

(of course, I hope they do. Live a good long healthy life, but the young ones will have 40 or 50 more years of it)

Oh I firmly believe they are better in than out and will be voting accordingly.

They had a debate on TV between young an not-so-young voters about the vote and the young made no bones about bluntly making that very point to the blue-rinse-brigade put in front of them.

Sorry I should point out that this was in Brighton

The geico commercial was about squirrels in the attic, a pun on the word "nutters."

I am infamous for my puns.

This is a grim forecast for the leave scenario

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/one-chart-shows-main-economic-072521965.html?nhp=1

Stay in looks like the best bet by a long way

Don't know how to decide how to vote in the Referendum?

Well if I am in any kind of quandery on anything I just read a copy of the Daily Mail and do/think/vote completely the opposite. Simple. The Daily Mail is an an unerring moral compass when used in such a fashion.

Incognitas

>>What we didn't realise was we were being signed up to an eventual federation of Europe because we were basically lied to by Heath.>>

I am uncertain as to whether we were lied to by Heath. I don't think so. I don't think what we have now was ever imagined, or even postulated. It was just a 'European Market', following on from EFTA. That the Common Market has grown into an inflated entity that is unmanageable is true and I think the US is suffering from this modern phenomenon too. It was thought the worst had happened when a film star became President, but now?

I was too young to vote on the Common Market referendum, but it made me realise referenda are not really a good way to decide what eventually will happen to the Country. There are a few who will research the subject, listen to the arguments and attempt to make an informed decision before voting, but most will probably opt for one soundbite headline, whether it being fishing rights, immigration, trade, workers' rights, free borders etc.

For me this is the naughties equivalent of the Cold War, without the missiles, but as dangerous. If we stay, we could stand to be subsumed into Europe and become what a state is in the U.S. with Federal law dictated from Europe, but state law set by the respective states (nations). If we leave we are an isolated Nation with little in the way of trade, but loads of technological advances, financial acumen and scientific knowhow, but is it enough to survive in a cutthroat global world.

Also leaving due to the belief it will reduce immigration will not 'stop them coming' or enable the Country to deport illegals any more than it does now. Immigration officials cannot cope with the number of illegals coming in now, most being processed in Croydon. They will still find a way to enter.

I, too, am uncertain, so I have set my default switch to remain.

Better the I know etc. etc. etc.

MMF

I'm not so sure that being part of a federalised superstate would be a bad thing. Germany works pretty well.

I've got a lot of sympathy for people who have informed, detailed, technical objections to the EU and the way it operates. I share some of those objections and worries. I also agree that this has been a pretty shocking campaign from both sides as regards misuse of statistics.

But I don't accept that both sides are as bad as each other - Brexit's distortions have been bigger and more frequent, and I haven't see Remain pander to racism and xenophobia in the way that some elements in Brexit have. That's not to say that all Brexiteers are racists - there are a lot of decent people who just see things differently and with whom I respectfully disagree.

But although not all Brexiteers are racists, it seems that all racists are Brexiteers. And that's the problem.

Large sections of the Leave Campaign and their media allies have been completely irresponsible in turning a complex and multi-faceted issue into a faux-debate on false premises about "immigration" (which doesn't just mean 'immigration', of course, it also means UK citizens who aren't white). And stirring up fear and hatred.

So I think what I'm saying is that if you're tempted by Brexit for informed and non-racist reasons, then I understand, but with respect I have to say that Leave doesn't deserve to win. Even if you're right and I'm wrong about everything else, I'd still say we as a society can't *afford* them to win, such are the forces they've been meddling with and appear to have unleashed.

So what I'd say to anyone wavering is to think not only about the consequences of Brexit, but of Brexit under these circumstances, with those political leaders, with that particular toxic campaign - at best, the rabid right wing of the Tories, at worst UKIP. If I spell out what I think might happen next, perhaps you'll think I'm scaremongering, so I won't. Just imagine Cameron gone, a hard right government, what sections of the media will be like, who and what will be under threat next in terms of rights, freedoms, and institutions.

I'm not scaremongering, I'm scared. So, if you're one of those decent people minded to vote for Brexit, please hold your nose and vote Remain. And if I'm preaching to the converted, don't forget to vote.

Europe has remained peaceful for a very long time now. The number of people who remember otherwise grows smaller with every passing year. The wife of a friend was born in France, and she often gives me an earful about the inanities of telling farmers they can't grow what they are, in fact, best at growing. Frankly, I'm sympathetic, but overall I don't see a better outcome for a region that had so many ugly conflicts for so many centuries.

Pondering the merits of weighted votes - those of younger people counting for more than older people, given that they will bear the consequences longer…..

Can't see that catching on somehow.

My mother says she will definitely vote, she says it's not right not to. She's 96.

Min's determined to vote too, she's 93. But she's inclined to vote out - so is my brother. Apparently he thinks those who vote in 'need their heads examined'. I said that wasn't very civilised.

When does this vote occur?

What time can you get here?

23rd June - not so long now thank

Disgusted as I am with Remain's campaign - Otto has the right of it and it's a point well made. Leave's campaign is the more odious by far. But then a Remain supporter would say that I suppose.

[Waits for the roof to fall in or not]