h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Some dismiss it as 'mystical woo woo', others say it really works for them but don't really think to hard about it, others still go on about the flow of energy in the body.

So what are the community's thoughts on this? Does anyone know of any studies that have been conducted? Has anyone had acupuncture? If so did it work for you?

*Waits for Z to show up.*

Well on occasion, say scratching an itch or rubbing a bumped spot, I get some kind of sensation somewhere else and I can't imagine I'm the only one - presumably this is a common experience?

So someone maps the causes and effects, experiments and decides that needles make good instruments and there you go, another way of getting money from people...

Does it work? Dunno (can't imagine paying to find out).
Flow of energy? Sounds good, doesn't it?

Can acupuncture cure pins and needles?

Just know that this thread was formed out of spite.

Ah, a barbed thread about needle ?

Oh !

I really don't have time to spend a lot of time on h2g2 and then someone asks a really interesting question.

1. Traditional chinese acupuncture has no biological plausibility. Whilst it is plausible that sticking a needle in a tense muscle would have smoke effect on the muscle the idea that sticking a needling in a imaginary meridian will have an effect on an a medical condition contradicts known science.

(Note to visiting post modernists: you may believe that this is just my world view, and that other realities may exist. I believe you are wrong. Lets not derail the thread over that. I am in agreement with Sokal on the postion of post modernism in science. ).

Because something has no biological plausibility doesn't mean that it doesn't work or that it should not be used. It just means that the we need to very good proof that it does work before accepting that it may be effective. In the absence of good evidence I think that it is reasonable to prescribe a treatment that is biologically plausible, but I do not think that acupuncture is biologically plausible.


2. To evaluate the effectiveness of a treatment you need to do a placebo controlled trial, it's fairly obvious whether you are sticking a needle in someone or giving them a pill, but you can acquire sham acupuncture needles for this purpose.

Most RCTs compare acupuncture to pills, or to nothing so cannot be blinded, a good trial would compare acupuncture to sham acupuncture.
The Cocherane Collaboration has reviewed acupuncture for a number of conditions, and has not found good evidence that it works. I note that the trials that did find that it worked didn't use shame but instead used 'usual care' or 'medication'. There are some promising results in some areas, but I am not yet convinced. You can find a summary of all their reviews here http://www.thecochranelibrary.com/details/collection/691705/Acupuncture-ancient-tradition-meets-modern-science.html

You can find more about the technique of meta-analysis here: http://www.h2g2.com/approved_entry/A87726900A87726900

People often say that the reason their is no evidence that alternative treatments work is because there is no funding for trials, but reading the above their are a great deal of trials carried out, but they are of poor methodological quality. I think that people who think that accupuncture works should conduct a trial of good methodology quality to demonstrate it.

Statement of Conflict of Interest:

I do not prescribe acupuncture. I am an active member of the skeptic movement, on the committee of Edinburgh Skeptics. I share an lab kitchen with the Cochrane Stroke Group, and I believe they are stealing my coffee.

I'm just wondering if this means sticking needles in a voodoo doll will make the person it represents feel better or worse.

Judging by the above, there isn't enough evidence

How do sham acupuncture needles work? Is it like a really teeny version of those retractable knives they use in theatre productions and the person doing the acupuncture is all "yeah, I really did put that needle in you. Honest. "

Basically I think they are:
http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2002/apr/04needle.html

I am fairly sure that the practicioner has to know that the needle has gone in, but the patients are supposed to be unaware of whether the needle has punctured the skin or not.

I believe there was at least one study where they did insert needles, but in arbitrary locations rather than those indicated by traditional acupuncture adherants.

What Z said.

A handy reference for alt. medicine and the evidence for efficacy is Simon Singh's book: Trick or Treatment.

(And guess who Edinburgh Skeptics have got speaking in August http://www.edinburghskeptics.co.uk/events/sotf-edzard-ernst-alternative-medicine-trick-or-treatment/ I'm very excited..).

For what it's worth... I have heard that the 'meridians' follow, roughly, the lymphatic system.

Anyway, my opinion is that it can be useful for some things (helped my back to come out of spasm so my physio could work with me) but I doubt it's efficacy with things like addiction.

I also suspect it has some use with emotional issues. Bottled emotion can cause stress which has a physical effect (muscle tension and so on). I am a believer in the process of manipulating the body into a 'relaxed' state to similarly, through the nervous system, relax the mind/emotions. Sort of backwards engineering. It doesn't *stick* but it can help with temporary relief, especially when tension patterns are causing abnormal body positions. (think hunched shoulders caused by stress tension which in turn causes headaches because of pressure being put on various parts of the neck.). The temporary relief of the tension can also allow better responses to the initial stresses...

If I remember the chapter on acupuncture in "Trick or Treatment" correctly (Edzard Ernst and Simon Singh) - in reviewing the published evidence for alt. medicine said that acupuncture was the most credible of the alternative therapies, as compared with, say, chiropractic, in that there was some *very small* measurable responses to things like pain-management. But this is damning with feint praise becuase the effect is small: if you really want to block pain take two ibuprofen with water becuase that *works*. - really it follows what Z said about the Cochrane Review, small effects limited studies, not all of them double-blind and therefore suspect.

Whether or not acupuncture does have benefit for pain management it was suggested was mostly thought to be becuase it stimulated the release of endorphins and nothing at all with mystic meridians and blocked Qi at chakra points whether they correspond to the lymbic system or not, the point is moot.

However the control trials where they existed (using things like retractable needles that didn't in-fact piece the skin but stayed in place with an adhesive) - showed that a lot of the claims about acupuncture are risible nonsense - just like all the rest - there is strong confirmation bias (I'm paying by the hour for this: it must do something!) combined the rather pleasant sedative of having someone else take care of you and finally the all-to-human placebo effect of thinking something with no actual benefit has a perceived benefit and therefore was effective when it wasn't.

If it indeed was helpful for your spasm, then it should have a general effect for spasm reduction - this is what other medicines are like. I know of no evidence that this is the case to any measurable degree so therefore confine your positive experience to the file marked "anecdote" pending future review.

Whether or not it is "helpful for some things" is something that can be directly measured - that's the point - that is what evidence based medicine rests on: what is the measurable effect of 'x' in terms of dose, toxicity, remission, side-effect etc. The problem with ALL alt.medicine is that it gets a largely free-pass on this point (see the contents labels on bottles of homeopathy pills in your local Boots - 50% Lactose 50% Sucrose: sugar and sugar - no 'active ingredient' - compare this the labels on some *real medicine* and reflect upon the difference.) And pointing out that it gets a free pass gets people all sorts of grumpy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/nov/28/homeopathy-placebo-bad-science


"I am a believer in the process of manipulating the body into a 'relaxed' state to similarly, through the nervous system"

Chiropratic's prettier and more refined half-sister Osteopathy (who left the family apothecary business of scyring evil curses and took herself of to the medical school in the city to be educated) - takes roughly that approach to stress and tension - becuase bodies are interconnected systems, and they get that. (A point made to me when we had heavy lifting training at work by an Osteopathy group and I was shown how picking up a object with my arms, also uses small muscles in the lower part of my back) - where they differ is that Osteopaths don't make unsubstatiated(able) claims and as a whole claim to be able to cure childhood asthma* by cranking the neck or immunising against malaria. (Homeopathy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni7rupnQOek

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1UJ_qGZ24k


*which was I think the basis of the libel lawsuit filed by the British Chiropractic ssociation against simon singh when he called their claims "bogus treatments" in the Guardian and they sued him for it.

Eventually the case was dropped when the Chiropractic Association withdrew.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/apr/15/simon-singh-libel-case-dropped

It's woo. It's not homeopathy-level woo, because someone's stabbing you instead of telling you that you've received one one-trillionth of a stabbing, but it's still woo.

....possibly Woo....probably Woo....

but acupuncture relieved the pain in my head when suffering migraines, enabling me to function with a young family....

Didn't cure them, but I was able to function..

Bit yogurty, might not be complete yogurt like Reiki.