h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I was rather trying to imply te opposite. It's an ongoing process, though.

Sorry, do you mean that you think that Occupy has been successful in make people listen?

Are you sure you're not the devil's guacamole?

I think the hardest question people have been asking is, what are the solutions

or options?

I would say that it has had some limited success - albeit pretty much preaching to the converted.

That sounds like damning with faint praise. It needs to be there. But it's only a foothold.

Not sure how grounded I am, I sort of know can't have one foot in each camp and that is how I feel at the moment, I like grassroots but I see a bigger picture.

Good to distinquish perhaps?

Indeed. It's not a negative comment on Occupy to say that we shouldn't pin our hopes on it. We can hope. But we should also be realists.

>>> If you had any evidence whatsoever of real progress being made by Occupy, you would post it.

Rudest Elf,

What about moving one billion dollars from the three worst offending banks on a single day? Doesn't that count?

>>> One branch of the second largest US bank closing its doors to street customers is real progress, is it?

When you realize that bank is a branch one of the three worst offending banks, and that now they are so frightened of losing a penny more to a local credit union, they are locking their doors against a small group of old ladies, then yes. And if you had read articles I and others have linked to, you would know that Bank of America backed down on a proposed punitive fee increase, which I also consider real progress.

>>> And when I see Occupy has shown a great deal of spirit, and they've managed to entertain themselves and others, but they have done nothing (and perhaps are powerless to do anything) to rectify the situation.

Entertain? Is that what you think this is, entertainment? Rudest Elf, this isn't being done because of a lack of entertainment. I'm finding it insulting and offensive that my fellow researchers are so quick to deride efforts to address an enormous social injustice, but find it too onerous to read the articles I've linked to.

If you or anyone else wants to have a thread entitled "Why Occupy Is Rubbish" or even, "Why Saying 'I'm Willing To Be Convinced' Means I Don't Have To Click On Any Links To News Articles And Actually Read Them" please do so, but kindly stop trying to derail the discussion here.

Yours are far from the only articles I read, Happy Nerd.

"stop trying to derail the discussion here"

I have posted less than 6 times in a thread of close to 1,000 posts, and you feel threatened?

You don't appreciate the fact that I disagree with you. Like it or not, it's my opinion that Occupy cannot solve the current financial crisis, or radically change the system (which, like democracy, stinks for some, but is the best we know).

When they do succeed, I'll be the first to admit that I was wrong.

End with a song: http://www.goear.com/listen/fba8953/first-we-take-manhattan-jennifer-warnes

Elf, I appreciate your presence in this thread, even where I disagree with you. I feel a bit touchy about people coming to this thread and criticising without being clear in what they are doing. And despite the wording of the OP, I think this thread was always intended to be an occupy of h2g2, so I think some of us here feel like this is an Occupy space, not just another thread on h2g2 (thus the name of the thread). I think this has been missed by some and is possibly why there has been some conflict over how we debate here. In that sense I fully support what HN has said about people starting their own thread if they want to just say Occupy is rubbish.

I don't know where you fit in to all that, and personally I don't feel threatened by your criticisms even though I don't really understand what they are. I do hope you will stick around, and I also hope you can elucidate more in what you are saying.

I don't think that it's Occupy's job to 'solve the current financial crisis', or even radically change the system (although it may evolve into that). I do think it is radical though and the effects are probably quite different than what some are expecting. It's been a theme in this thread that Occupy has failed to do x, y, z, but as far as I can see it's failing to live up to some people's expectations. Which is interesting in and of itself (should Occupy be meeting the agenda of the wider public?).

Sorry, Kea, I didn't realise this was your thread.

I've watch you over the years, and I think you're a great debater. It's pretty clear that I am not. However, if dissenting opinions aren't welcome, this is hardly a debate.

I've given my point of view, and I await developments with interest - more than that, I'm not prepared to say.

*Not unsubbing*

>> "Why Saying 'I'm Willing To Be Convinced' Means I Don't Have To Click On Any Links To News Articles And Actually Read Them"

Well I've read quite a lot. I've also briefly visited OccupyLSX. I'm optimistic - but still...unconvinced isn't the right word, more sceptical.

Something that I *have* started noticing is that we have started to become a little more literate in what Capitalism actually is. Books such as Ha-Joon Chang's '23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism' (just been given a copy) are bestsellers. Quantitative easing and debt ratings are topics of conversation. See also today's R4 Start The Week. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006r9xr As citizens we are becoming more economically literate and therefore more engaged in what was previously 'Too Complicated To Understand' (so best leave it all to us). Even Marx has reared his ugly head. Now...Occupy has been part of this. When I was at Occupylsx Lord Skidelsky was there and Ha-Joon Chang's flipchart scribbles were still up at the Tent University. The issue is perhaps whether it has made a *unique* contribution? Or is it's primary success as a useful gimmick, keeping things front and centre that are inevitably going on anyway as the result of the economic crisis?

*Caveat* OccupyWS is rather different, having joined up with, for example labor unions. Ditto Occupy Oakland which is tackling some local poverty issues. And Spain is something altogether different. And I'm waiting to see what will emerge from Occupylsx's squatting activities.

kea:
>>I think this thread was always intended to be an occupy of h2g2

In my personal experience of a physical Occupy, they didn't much mind people wandering over for a spot of healthy disagreement.

Elf, it's not my thread, and I'm glad you are sticking around

>>
In my personal experience of a physical Occupy, they didn't much mind people wandering over for a spot of healthy disagreement.
<<

Healthy being the operative word there. I suspect they would have a problem with someone turning up and going "you're all rubbish and wasting your time" especially if that person then refused to engage in any meaningful way.

I'll try and say this a different way then: I welcome dissent that is intelligent, thoughtful, expresses not just opinion but meaning, and adds to the ongoing dialogues here. I don't welcome expressions of dissent that are ill-informed, disrespectful, repetitions of previously expressed opinion that don't take us anywhere new, and posts that derail the thread.

For instance. If someone wants to post saying they think Occupy is rubbish, fine. But if they keep coming back again and again and saying that *without* going into why they think it is rubbish, and doing so in a way that engages with the other people here and takes the conversation somewhere interesting or useful, then what's the bloody point?

Also, if someone wants to say Occupy is rubbish, then they need to expect people to argue with them about that.

Except that from what I can see, RE *has* made an argument whether or not we like it*.

Yes - argue back. But at first your message gave the perhaps inadvertent impression that this was an Occupation and therefore not the place for dissent.

My argument against (or more of a question, really) is - OK - so if this sort of thing will do no good, if even something even more vigorous such as the Indignados will do no good - does this imply that there's no point trying anything? Ever?













* Unlike some. No names, no pack drill.

I don't feel like spending the time on the backlog to find it , but someone told me that one of the purposes of this thread is to educate people as to what the OWS movement and related occupy movement was doing. In that vein I have tried to keep people apprised of what Occupy Lansing did. Right now they have retreated into hiding, waiting for the winter to get over. However I believe they have some lecturer at Michigan State University tonight talking about the tie between Martin Luther King Jr. (whose holiday this is in the US) and Occupy.

A comment earlier by (was it?) shagbark about the African-American Civil Rights movement as being 'apolitical'. I don't get this. In what way was it not political. Even leaving aside that they were chock full of Commies and Labor organizers - surely the whole idea of liberating an underclass is political? Or have I just read the wrong books, as usual.

(It may just be a UK/US difference in the use of the word 'politics.' For example, I know of a US university that changed the name of its politics degree because the students felt it sounded too dirty and might limit their job prospects.)

One perception of OccupyLSX is that they're bending over a little too far backward to be apolitical. That said, when I was there I spoke to Green Party members and there was a diverse range of posters up for the likes of The Iraqi Communist Party (M-L). I. personally, can't see what the problem is with established groups pitching in their two penn'orth. Nobody has to let them take over if they don't want them to.

Locally I can tell you that we are political, and politically active, but no one is preaching any one doctrine (Dems, Reps, Greens, etc.) as a solution to all ails. And that makes sense, because it is the system that is broken.

And yes, I would agree with what Ed says, liberating an underclass is political. Ed, the Civil Rights movement was open to everyone across the political spectrum, and I think that is what Shagbark may have meant.

It's a bugbear of mine when people talk about being apolitical. . Something like a softball league can be apolitical. But a movement has to politicise its ass.