h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

oh nos, I missed a post that is now vanished I hope it was rude...

HI>>Why do many areas of major cities have areas called Little Germany or Little Italy or Chinatown?

Because then as now, the outgroup populations were concentrated into specific geographic areas. >

So, when you are called a Little Englander when bemoaning the area you live in being overrun by Johnnie Foreigners then it's not an insult but an accurate desciption of how the area has changed.

As for Bradford, having been back there last year I watched students going back to the halls of residence and a good 95% were of Asian descent as opposed to 95% white about 20years ago.

Not sure if it's mainly due to students staying near home to go to uni to save costs or just a 'migration' of demographics to certain areas.

I didn't specify whether I thought my list was 'British' or 'English' culture, and I'm not sure that I'm clear which I meant - although I'm sure there is substantial overlap. My purpose was not to claim that we're *all* like that as individuals or groups, or that there aren't variations, but to list some things that are true, in general, on average, in aggregate, of "us" as a whole. They are stereotypes and generalisations, but that's to be expected. The existence of culture does not, of course, rule out the existence of sub-cultures based on region, lifestyle etc etc etc.

And it surely makes sense to say that there are at least some things that are true of us, as a whole, that aren't true of other places. Because if "we" don't have a culture, then how can we say that anyone else does? If we don't and others do, that can only be because "we're" too complex and varied and different to have a single culture, while other groups are all much more similar and conformist and monolithic in beliefs, attitudes and outlooks. And I think that's a rather dangerous and potentially rather patronising assumption to make.

I'm quite comfortable with saying that there is a British culture, and that there has been more immigration since 1945 than at other times in our history - even though immigration has been a constant throughout our history. But I'm also comfortable with that - we had labour shortages then, we probably still have skills shortages now, and we will have labour shortages in the future because we have an ageing population.

But I just don't see the *evidence* for there being some threat or some fundamental shift to our "culture". I can't see any significant examples of it at all, in spite of a large section of the media being rabidly hunting for examples and evidence, and the absence of such evidence, exaggerating and distorting out of all recognition or just making stuff up.

In the city where I moved to last year, I see a lot more faces that are different colours to mine than where I lived before, I see a lot of people who dress differently and have different cultures, different traditions, and who do things differently. But most of this is what's often called the "private sphere". And there are probably as many and as significant variations amongst "private sphere" behaviour among settled white British people, (which might be why some people don't think we have a culture that's that distinctive).

But.... if immigration is fundamentally changing the "nature of our society", let's see the evidence. As all us good rationalists agree, substantial claims require substantial evidence, so.... where is it?

Spot on... The only evidence I've seen is the wild (and always proven to be inaccurate), claimes in certain parts of the media...
There was a great example of this on a recent Radio Four comedy show... err can't remember which one, but about a storey in a newspaper which was so wildly inaccurate it was a lie, yet would have been lapped up by those who just want to hear that kind of thing
I love where i live now as it is a nice mix of people from differnt places; especially with the students in town during term time (and now I think of it I think the Language courses are currently running at the universitys in the summer school season...).
Next door one side I've an Chinese restaurant which is frequented mainly by Chinese (well and me of course ), next to that is an Indian takeaway, and next to that a 'ethnic food shop' (actually no idea what nationality that is really....)
The other side of me, I've an Afro-carribean hairdressers (where some pretty girls work ) and next to that is a general store/corner shop which, yes, is run by asian guys of some description, and we've a newsagents a bit further on that is run by an Indian guy who's been there about thirty years now... Strangely though most people living round here are pretty much all white middle and some working class. (guess that is to do more with the price of houses here as much as anything)...
I still remember hwo impressed I was walking into the organic farm shop on teh other side of the road (now changed hands and run by Italians as a deli), and the guy who owned/worked there, (very much white middle class), was talkign to a customer in French, as the French guy was struggling a bit with his English to ask for exactly* what he wanted, and then a few days later, the same guy workign in the shop doing the same with a German customer...
I'm regularly chatting to spanish and French and Scandanavian guys in the pubs near here, plus of course the polish barstaff who seemingly fill a niche there which no one else can
damn... now I've mentioned all those food outlets up the street I'm feeling starving hungry again

>> Or is a YouGov poll of over 2000 people "a little idiosyncratic"?
<<

Ordinarily, I'd say "no". But I can find no mention of this poll on the YouGov website. The article you link to is another media outlet reporting on the Daily Express. The Daily Express doesn't seem to have details of this poll, either. It's entirely possible that they made it up.

RF

"But.... if immigration is fundamentally changing the "nature of our society", let's see the evidence. As all us good rationalists agree, substantial claims require substantial evidence, so.... where is it?"

Probably bad form to quote myself, but I should also have asked for evidence that such changes are negative or undesirable.

2legs - I think that was the 'Now Show'. Very nicely done, I thought.

These discussions get a bit circular sometimes, with one side adamantly stamping feet and saying "there is no British culture" and "we're a nation of immigrants".

The first is just ignorance, frankly.

The second is a lie often repeated in the hope that it sticks. It is however true to say that there has always been immigration - a very different thing altogether. As can be seen in the link I posted, the huge influx of Huguenots that the Left are so fond of referring to amounted to no more than 80,000 people, less than 1% of the population - over a period of 40 years. That averages out at about 6 people a day.

It's estimated that about 1.5 million Eastern Europeans moved to Britain between 2004 and 2009 - 2.5% of the UK population. That's 822 people a day.

And that's only Eastern Europeans from the new accession EU States - it doesn't include immigration from the rest of the world.

Anybody who doesn't see that there is a problem with so many new people coming in so quickly to areas unprepared can only be deliberately avoiding the truth. And if they do not want to see, there is absolutely no point in discussing the issue here.

It's like standing in a summer thunderstorm with someone who says it doesn't rain in July.

I/we can but repeat the question, 'what problem' is it that this is causing?
Also, nice of you to also mention that of the influx of Easturn Europeans, a vast amount of those who came in the initial influx, when those countrys joined the EU, have since returned. Hence the problem (I think last summer), with the lack of farm labour for harvesting summer fruit crops. All the easturn European people round here I see are in work, mainly in pubs/bars and domestic service so, err they're not exactly creating trubble ...
Plenty of unemployed white Brits round here though... Guess the Easturn Europeans must have stolen their jobs... err only they were unemployed prior to the Easturn Europeans arriving

The disappeared post was mine. Anyone shocked? As swl said, it didn't contain anything yikesable. No, 2legs, there was nothing rude in it. As I've literally just got out of premoderation, I was being careful. Not careful enough, obviously.

The moderation email states that they'd be happy for me to rewrite it and post it again.

From experience, I know this to be an outright lie, so I shall not be bothering.

swl is saying pretty much what I said, but isn't getting posts hidden for it.

There IS an identifiable British culture, we are NOT a nation of immigrants, and recent uncontrolled immigration IS a problem. To pretend otherwise is... not rational. Which is why I wonder why people do it.

There.

Yikes that.

" 'what problem' is it that this is causing? "

Do you really need it spelled out? You, who are proud of your qualifications, who don't want to be called stupid?

Might perhaps it be possible that rapid, uncontrolled influxes of population to a region where there are insufficient housing and other local government resources (e.g. refuse collection, education, childcare, law enforcement, social services, etc. etc. etc.) might cause resource allocation issues? Might it perhaps be possible that that may cause resentment among the people whose home it is, when they suffer because of it?

I entirely believe that it's not causing a problem FOR YOU, 2legs. Do try to have the imagination to understand that there are other people out there who are not having your experience.

The following are different questions, and it's worth distinguishing them.

1. Whether immigration has led to "fundamental changes to our culture", and if so, whether these changes have been negative.

2. To what extent the UK is equipped to cope with an increase in population.

2legs - yes, almost half of the EEs have returned. And almost half of the Huguenots moved on too - which is why I based the figures on the peak EE immigration and the peak Huguenot immigration.

As I understand it, Germany realised in 2004 that allowing a lot of immigration into a country with millions unemployed was probably a bad thing to do and might lead to a rise in the right wing. So the Germans restricted EE immigration. Our incompetent government calculated only around 10,000 would come. One result is a rise in the BNP and associated thugs like the EDL and UAF.

A direct consequence of unprecedented immigration levels is a rise in the far-right and street battles between political thugs. Another consequence is the stable-door points policy which denies entry to the poorest and most needy immigrants.

Two quotes from Labour politicians -

"...there has also been a direct impact on the wages, terms and conditions of too many people in communities ill-prepared to deal with the reality of globalisation, including the one I represent. The result was, as many of us found in the election, our arguments on immigration were not good enough.
Extract from an article in
The Observer, 6 June, 2010 by the Rt Hon Mr Ed Balls MP
(Labour)

"People didn't believe the authorities knew what they were doing and there's a very good reason for that - they didn't."
Phil Woolas, Immigration Minister, reported in The Sun
(21 October, 2008)

<>

Would the question of banning women wearing a veil even have been contemplated in 1990? Would a points-based immigration policy have been seen as a good thing in 1990? Were we not a more tolerant country 20 years ago?

3Dots>>So, when you are called a Little Englander when bemoaning the area you live in being overrun by Johnnie Foreigners then it's not an insult but an accurate desciption of how the area has changed.

Possibly. Though the word "overrun" goes some way to make like the histrionics of a petty bigot. And there aren't so many areas where actual foreigners are a majority.
There is every chance that our hypothetical Little Englander wouldn't be a stereotypical white lower middle class person, they'd be from the "ethnic" group of the previous wave of migrants into that area. Afro-Caribbean complaining about Punjabi, Punjabi complaining about Somalians, Kenyans complaining about Poles.

RF>> Ordinarily, I'd say "no". But I can find no mention of this poll on the YouGov website. The article you link to is another media outlet reporting on the Daily Express. The Daily Express doesn't seem to have details of this poll, either. It's entirely possible that they made it up.

Sounds like an internet poll, rather than a representative sample of 2000 or possibly a poll of Express readers. Just where did Tiggy pull that 2000 figure from? His ?

HI>>The question that comes to mind is: has anyone ever, had a good time in Bradford?

A friend from college was performing with his band in Bradford, some local Muslims attempted to commit acts of violence against them. Apparently they were performing in an Muslim only part of the town.

Although as I recall they were an Emo band, so may explain why the locals wanted them dead... Does anyone with ears like Emo music?

http://today.yougov.co.uk/sites/today.yougov.co.uk/files/YG-Archives-Pol-Channel5-burkhas-160710.pdf

Jack, it sounds like those Muslims that your friends encountered are donig there best to fit in. Iv met lots of people from the allegedy easy going, softly spoken, democracy loving white majority who dont want people they perceive as different "round here".

SWL and Tiggy, Im not trying to say there isnt culture in this country but there never has been "one culture" and what culture there is isnt being erroded.

If you thinking of culture as a monolith of stone it explains where so many are going wrong. Think of culture as a patchwork quilt with the people in different places adding new bits. Yes some bits will get covered up often by things subtley different but sometimes by things radically different. So now we are are much more accepting of sex outside of marriage for instance I dont see Tiggy clamouring for the re-instatement of that Taboo.

Who's up for re-introduction of the old Sunday trading laws? Some of you might but lots of people are fairly happy with how things have changed and lets not forget how much we have to thank our friends from the Indian sub-continent and Africa for being instrumental in changing our culture.

Lets take one cultural event as an example, cheese rolling for instance has that been affected by multiculturalism. No it hasnt been erroded infact more people have becomeinvolved with it because of other cultural changes that people are ignoring. TV has made it more popular, more people driving and more free time have meant that part of culture has been improved, but also our growing H&S culture are affecting it negatively.

There are lots of things affecting our culture but some people want to focus on the elements emanating from brown people. Ignoring the positive and hyping up the perceived negatives.

But of course you're not racist.

That survey doesn't surprise me in the slightest, much as people's attitudes to bringing back hanging would have given similar results in the past.

Far more interesting would be for surveys to investigate exactly why people think that, or how much of a priority it is in their lives, to see the burqa banned.

I'd like to see a survey done along the lines of. 'Compared to all the other priorities in your life how big in importance is 'banning the burqa' to you?