h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"NeoPathFinder - you've made a couple of posts so far with comments that do not equate with my understanding of atheism (nor that of atheists I know)."
That is entirely possible, which is one reason I brought up these questions.

"You've talked about tenets of atheism, you've talked about atheism as a basis for morality under communism."
That comment was meant to illustrate that you can't pick and choose based on which philosophy you think might form a good basis for a subjective morality rather than which you think are true. I apologize, I was being absurd and I think I should have made that clearer.

I think it is basically true that saying "Atheism is the basis for Communist ideas of morality" is like saying "Judaism is the basis for Christian ideas of morality". It is true but it's extremely overly-simplistic - there is much more to it than that.

"Perhaps we should define here, what do you think the definition of atheism is? What are it's defining qualities and how do you think it affects a person so labelled?"
Atheism is the belief that God definitely does not exist. Theism is the position that God definitely does exist.

>Atheism has proven to be a very poor basis for morality - Communism being a prime example.

Atheism is not the basis of Communism and never has been. Communism's basis is the Marxist reading of history and the solution to the supposed insurmountable problems of capitalism communists believe in. There are also near-communist ideologies with a religious basis (liberation theology, for instance). The atrocities committed by communist regimes and guerillas were done in the name of communism, not atheism.

However, the atrocities committed by Christians and Muslims in history and more recently *have* been committed in the name of their respective religions. That's not to say, of course, that follows of either religion should be tainted by the atrocities of their co-religionists but you cannot entirely separate the religion from the atrocity.

"Meeting god or something like that. Pehaps i used the wrong words, if someone could prove beyond any doubt that god exists then i would ahve to reconsider."
There are a number of people who claim to have met God. Moses for example. If that is your criteria, I think this type of eyewitness testimony may at least be worth considering.

"I think it is basically true that saying "Atheism is the basis for Communist ideas of morality" is like saying "Judaism is the basis for Christian ideas of morality". It is true but it's extremely overly-simplistic - there is much more to it than that."

No, it isn't. Communism is, as I've explained, borne out of a specific reading and theory of history. It's possible to be atheiest and staunchly anti-communist (look at Ayn Rand, for example, her ideas are part-borne out of atheism and they are the polar-opposite of communism).

Ironically, much communist morality is similar to early christianity: it's built around co-operation and a rejection of materialism.

>> What is it about God/religion that you object to? <<

The last 65 posts.

RF

I thought as much. It is a common mistake.

Atheism is 'not believing that god does exist.'
It is not 'believing that god does not exist'. It's a subtle difference but a key one. It is a labelling of a negative, not a positive, a lack of an attribute not an actual attribute.

It is not a positive assertion, but rather the lack of a particular view of the world. Thus the comment that we are all atheists, I just go one god further than you.

Atheism is not a belief system, it is the lack of it. The confusion comes in, I think, partly due to the word itself which is an '-ism' and leads people to think that there is set of positive attributes one needs to fulfil to become a member.

Atheists are defined by what they are not - ie Theists. It's one reason I dislike the term. It tells you nothing about the person, other than that they do not believe in a god. There is no atheist fundamentalism since there are no fundamentals! There is nothing you have to believe in to be an atheist. It is the absence that it defines. And atheist may be completely different apart from that.

To actively believe there is no god one has to first have a definite concept of what god is.

Atheists I see nothing, give me proof there is something. The theist is the one claiming something does exist and therefore it is their responsibility to provide the evidence.

That then leads into the problems with the arguments about communism (and other isms) and atheism. Communism is not 'a type of' atheism. Communism is a thing unto itself. Its beliefs, its morals, its requirements are due to communism, not anything else.

That's how I understand atheism as do others on here that I have discussed with. There are others about who call themselves anti-theists which may be closer to your definition.

hope that helps

"Atheism is not the basis of Communism and never has been. Communism's basis is the Marxist reading of history and the solution to the supposed insurmountable problems of capitalism communists believe in."
I think you misunderstand Communism. Communism's basis is dialectic materialism. Marx married dialectics with materialism. Both dialectics and materialism are logically dependent on atheism, if I understand them correctly.

"There are also near-communist ideologies with a religious basis (liberation theology, for instance). The atrocities committed by communist regimes and guerillas were done in the name of communism, not atheism."
Granted. It is not as if I hold individual atheists or atheism responsible for the atrocities of Communism. That would be absurd.

"However, the atrocities committed by Christians and Muslims in history and more recently *have* been committed in the name of their respective religions."
Granted. However, just because something was done in someone's name doesn't mean it was with their permission. (i.e. this could be a case of moral "identity theft")

"That's not to say, of course, that follows of either religion should be tainted by the atrocities of their co-religionists but you cannot entirely separate the religion from the atrocity."
In the same sense, you also cannot entirely separate communism and atheism since the one is dependent on the other.

Wait, that wasn't Marx, it was Hegel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism

now i'm confused

How exactly would communism not work without atheism?

"No, it isn't. Communism is, as I've explained, borne out of a specific reading and theory of history. It's possible to be atheiest and staunchly anti-communist (look at Ayn Rand, for example, her ideas are part-borne out of atheism and they are the polar-opposite of communism).

Ironically, much communist morality is similar to early christianity: it's built around co-operation and a rejection of materialism."
I agree with you, and what you're saying doesn't contradict what I said before. It is true to both say that Communism was born out of dialectic materialism and out of a specific reading and theory of history.

Re: the earlier comment about atheists in prison. Isn't it true that people in extremis turn to religion? They say there are no atheists in a foxhole and I would think that would apply to prisoners too. Is it easier to be atheistic when everything is rosy in your garden? Does this lend weight to the argument that religion is an emotional crutch?

Before I go back to lurking, I regard myself as agnostic where that means neither side has presented definitive evidence that has convinced me, but I've got an open mind.

>In the same sense, you also cannot entirely separate communism and atheism since the one is dependent on the other.

As I've explained above (particularly with the example of liberation theology) it isn't. There have been communists who have been religious believers because they accepted the Marxist reading of history and capitalism but not Marx's own views on God and the afterlife (which are essentially irrelevant to communist practice).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

"I agree with you, and what you're saying doesn't contradict what I said before. It is true to both say that Communism was born out of dialectic materialism and out of a specific reading and theory of history."

The problem is that you used communism as an example of why atheism wasn't the sound basis for morality and yet, as I've explained, not only were the atrocities committed by communists not done in the name of atheism but in the name of the Marxist understanding of history but also it's possible to commit these atrocities AND be a believer AND do it in the name of Marxism which leaves your original argument extremely shaky indeed.

There are societies which are not big on the idea of punishing criminals, as they believe they will be punished by being reincarnated as a cockroach instead. If reincarnation was shown to be wrong, such a system would be in trouble. However even with my little knowledge of communism, if God´s existence was shown to be real, I doubt communists would suddenly think that workers could no longer own the means of production.
Atheism follows socialism because of how Marx felt about religion. However I don´t see the politics and economics of socialism in any way relies on atheism.

"How exactly would communism not work without atheism?"
1. The guiding principles of communism are necessarily materialistic.
2. God cannot exist objectively if there is no objective truth. Dialectics claims that there is no objective truth.
3. "Christian Communism" cannot be anything other than a front, if they adhere to the principles of dialectic materialism.

"Re: the earlier comment about atheists in prison. Isn't it true that people in extremis turn to religion? They say there are no atheists in a foxhole and
I would think that would apply to prisoners too. Is it easier to be atheistic when everything is rosy in your garden? Does this lend weight to the argument
that religion is an emotional crutch?"
I dunno, but I never personally at least found the slightest whim to want to 'turn to god', or religion either hwen life really sucked because relitives and people I was friends with were all dieing, and nor when I died myself very nearly... I wonder if Saddam Hussaine turned to Christianity when he was hiding the foxhole... Somehow I doubt it... It all is, afterall as far as I can make out an utter lottery and random event as to what religion (if any) an individual turns. If I were born to a devoute Christian family I'd have a greater chance of being one myself, etc., etc.,
Personally I believe in no god in the universe as I've not come across anything yet that wasn't better explained by that which we already know

OK I think we're dealing with different definitions of what Communism is and means. The one I have always understood was dialectic materialism. If you believe in dialectic materialism, you believe in Communism. What you all seem to be describing is what I understood mere radical socialism to be. Socialism is not necessarily atheistic.

I liked the 2nd Bible verse you cited:

'He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous'

But I always prefered the version that goes:

It rains upon the just,
And also on the unjust fella,
But mostly on the just because...
The unjust has the just's umbrella!

Gif