A Conversation for Ask h2g2

The meaning of sounds

Post 921

Gnomon - time to move on

Peculiarities of Irish:

1. No word for Yes or No.
2. Word order is Verb Subject Object.
3. Two different verbs "to be", distinguishing between temporary or superficial description and essence of a thing.
4. No neuter case, so everything is he or she.
5. Words can be inflected at start as well as end.


The meaning of sounds

Post 922

liekki

>>Word order is Verb Subject Object.<<

Which is pretty rare: only about an estimated 9% of the world's languages has that word order.

The most common word order isn't the one in English (SVO), but the one in e.g. Japanese, SOV.


The meaning of sounds

Post 923

Gnomon - time to move on

There are six possible ways of arranging Subject Verb and Object. Are all six represented in the world's languages?


The meaning of sounds

Post 924

liekki

Yes. The two least common (OVS, OSV) though have only been found in some languages of the Amazon.

Percentages:

SOV: ~45
SVO: ~42
VSO: ~9
VOS: ~3
OVS: ~1
OSV: closer to 0

(the sample for this was 402 languages, so it's not nearly absolute)


The meaning of sounds

Post 925

liekki

On the Amazon, in the Amazon?


The meaning of sounds

Post 926

Gnomon - time to move on

"of the Amazon" is OK.

You could say "in the Amazon Basin".


The meaning of sounds

Post 927

DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me!

How do you manage without 'yes' or 'no', in practice?

Apparently, all variations of SVO are represented, but those with object first are very rare..


The meaning of sounds

Post 928

Gnomon - time to move on

In practise, we can manage quite OK without yes and no. If someone asks us is it a nice day, we say "it is". If asked did I go to the film yesterday, I say "went".

The only time it becomes a problem is on Referendum voting papers. The English version has two boxes marked Yes and No. By rights, the Irish one should have the boxes marked "Agree" and "Disagree", but these are rather long words, so the Irish form says "Is" and "Isn't".


The meaning of sounds

Post 929

Noggin the Nog

<<"Is", "Isn't"">>

Sounds about right for politics smiley - erm

I´m learning Spanish, and that has two verbs for "to be", too. Tricky at first, but actually quite useful.

Noggin


The meaning of sounds

Post 930

Gnomon - time to move on

As far as I can see, the two Spanish verbs for "to be" are very similar in function to the two Irish ones, although not quite identical.


The meaning of sounds

Post 931

Gnomon - time to move on

The inflection thing in Irish means that the sounds at the start of a word can change depending on the word before it, and the sound at the end of the word changes depending on the purpose of the word.

Mouth is "bay-ull" but "my mouth" is "muh vay-ull". The b changes to v. Similarly, a popular name is "Shay-mus", but when you address someone of that name, you say "ah Hay-mish".

I've obviously transliterated all these into English spelling.


The meaning of sounds

Post 932

manolan


Do the b/v type changes entirely depend on grammatical context, or are they influenced by the preceding word?

I ask because mutation is a feature of all Celtic languages and in Welsh it depends only on the preceding letter:

e.g. Cymru (Wales), Croeso i Gymru (Welcome to Wales), yng Nghymru (in Wales), Lloegr a Chymru (England and Wales)

I'm certainly not aware of the mutations having any grammatical value.


The meaning of sounds

Post 933

Gnomon - time to move on

I don't know what you mean by grammatical value. They are part of the language. Some prepositions cause the first letter of the noun to be aspirated which turns a b to a v or w, an s to a h and so on. Other cause a consonant change called "urú" or "eclipsis", changing b to m, f to v, s to t, d to n etc.

In some cases, you can tell the meaning from the type of mutation:

a mac (ah mock) means her son
a mhac (ah wock) means his son


The meaning of sounds

Post 934

liekki

Is the cause of this the last sound of the preceding word, not the function of the preceding word (e.g.preposition)? In other words, is this a similar form of assimilation as in the English 'watcha' (what+you)?


The meaning of sounds

Post 935

Gnomon - time to move on

I don't think so. I think it conveys meaning. I think you could have "an cat", "an chait", "an gcait". In each case the preceding word is the same, but the case of the noun is different.


The meaning of sounds

Post 936

KB

Connected with peculiarities in Irish I came across the following quote by the writer Joseph O'Connor yesterday:

"How do you say 'I am sad' in Irish? Ta bron orm, which means literally 'sadness is upon me'; that is, I am the passive recipient of an emotion which is outside me...Irish features categories of passivity which other languages don't even dream about."


The meaning of sounds

Post 937

Recumbentman

Including hunger and thirst, happiness . . .


The meaning of sounds

Post 938

liekki

There are a couple of nice expressions like that in Finnish. In slightly formal language you can say 'mine is cold' = I am cold. Otherwise coldness, hunger, thirst, longing etc. are formed as 'I have x' or 'with me is x' (depending on how you choose to translate the adessive suffix). So 'I miss you' sounds a bit like 'I have longing of you'/'longing for you is with me'. But the subject is still the self, so the sense isn't as passive as in the Irish expression.


The meaning of sounds

Post 939

DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me!

Is, Isn't - that sounds cute! (No, I am not belittling, I just like the way of getting around this particular thing.)


The meaning of sounds

Post 940

DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me!

<>

I really like that! With me is cold, right now. smiley - brr


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