h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"this exhibition isn't educational, it's prurient"

ive seen it. youve not.

i know. you dont

i win. you lose

Bald unsupported statements substituting for thought or analysis.

Vicky has spoken. 'Nuff said.

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It's not a fight, it's not about me. I don't care whether I "lose" or not. I'm not on my own in being queasy about it, read the whole thread!

VL

Try posts 26 and 32 for instance.

Vicky

That's better, Vicky.

Saying that you personally have an instinctive, subjective response (feeling queasy) is different from making the bald statement that it prurient and not educational.



You're starting to learn.

I know you're disagreeing with her, but do you have to be so patronising? I hate this sort of thing, as it happens in EVERY discussion people have on h2g2.

Tigger_juggler

The comments were made by the Bishop of Manchester. Bishops, vicars, the clergy are there to guide their flock...why do people go to CHurch and listen to these people?

The high members of the CHurch speak for the lay people. If a Bishop of a certain diocese states something he is speaking for everyone in that diocese. If people in that diocese disagree it is up to them to take the Bishop to task. It is for the rest of us to take the statement as what it is: the views of the Diocese of Manchester.

Once, again all pick and choose about when to and when not to take the views of church people.



I presume you have sent the Bishop a strongly worded letter or e0mail saying that he is giving 'normal' Christians a bad name. If not, why not?

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Are you SURE you mean patronising?

Seriously...if you were aware of that researcher's predelictions for an assumption of superiority and her intolerance of disagreement, you'd join me in sincerely congratulating her on behaving with a modicum of decency.

Oh, I've seen her before. Doesn't mean I agree with patronising her because I don't agree with her views, the way she puts them forward, etc.

You know...you're right.

Viky: I was wrong to patronise you. I apologise.

I am happy to see you acknowledging that a subjective feeling is not an objective argument.

I agree, we should always try to avoid patronising people. I've seen plenty of it myself in the psychiatric world. I've been subjected to it myself.

I absolutely agree with Psychorp Six-Oh-Three.

It's not fair.

Indeed

Seeing what the body looks like on the inside could be educational. That doesn´t mean it will be presented in such a way. I haven´t seen the exhibition myself, I haven´t had the chance. I do think it is possible that it is no more educational than the gallery of horrors at Madame Tussauds. Especially if it is so, I can understand some people objecting to bodies being displayed in an undignified manner. However, despite their past when a christian expresses his opinion it doesn´t have to mean they are trying to censor everything else.

As a little kid I would read about Jack the Ripper and other such macabre things. That doesn´t mean I can´t see that for some kids seeing dead bodies like this might be a very traumatic experience. Certainly parents need to think twice before bringing them to such an exhibit.

Our modern so called civilised societies that have been around for around 100 years are a total abberration. For nearly all of human history death was an almost every day occurance. Children were well used to having siblings die. My great grandmother had 12 kids. That was normal. 5 died in childhood. Try reading any 19 C novel; people are dying every 5 minutes. Also many people and children would have been used to seeing animals slaugtered as food.

Just because everything is unnaturally hidden away in our society as if to pretend death doesn't happen, doesn't mean we should pass on this abusive mentality to our kids. Beacause that's the real abuse. Wipe out hundreds of thousands of years of real life that we humans have evolved to be used to in 100 years.

Little kids encountering real life real world rational reality and trauma is the most healthy and normal thing in the world.

Parents thinking twice is the absolute least they should be doing. They should be thinking long, hard and deeply what is the most rational and healthy experience they can give their kids in the context of human evolution for hundreds of thousands of years.

Pandering to lilly livered religious puritans viewpoints is NOT healthy for kids in my opinion.

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You pretty much repeated what I said in the third paragraph of this comment, yet, you are saying that because some are silent they are lockstep with the bishop. That is not accurate. Just because people supposedly aren't taking the bishop to task doesn't mean they aren't. It means they are not being published (basically, biased/onesided journalism). But, as I said, I respect people's right to have their opinion.

And as to why people go to church - they want something to believe in as far as their mortality and what happens after. That's something people need nowadays if you watch the world around you. If you don't believe, you lose hope and if you lose hope, you eventually waste away. That's something I realized was happening to me about two years ago. If it weren't for the church and other things, I could've become very depressed to the point of suicide. While I didn't progress to that point, I was already at the part of harming myself. I was starving myself because I was too engrossed in work to pay attention to my health. The power of prayer and things happening in my life helped reverse what was happening to me.

Also, not all churches in the Christian faith speak for the lay people. In fact, at least in the United States you can get into trouble for speaking for your worshipers if it's your own belief. I know of one church who removed their pastor for speaking for their congregation.

Regardless of what people say about religion, my Dad said it best in regard to a comment he said to an atheist colleague: "In the end, we all die and then we'll find out. If you're right, we'll all just die and only thing that will happen is we'll rot in a little box six feet under. But, if I'm right... you're going to be in a lot of hot water for a very long time."

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I presume you have sent the Bishop a strongly worded letter or e0mail saying that he is giving 'normal' Christians a bad name. If not, why not?>>

I will be specific now - I am a Baptist, no specific branch as I've worshiped in both strict Southern Baptist and the more relaxed types of worship.

Simply put, I don't have the access needed to send the letter - I'm not a member of his church. If I had the man's e-mail, I would write a letter similar to the post I made, because you're right - he does give people of the Catholic faith a bad name (as being rude, belligerent, and unopen to people's opinions about what to choose for themselves.

In short too, please don't be condescending toward all Christians for one person's comments. It is stereotyping them, and frankly that's just as bad as what the bishop is saying about the exhibit. I get tired of people bashing Christianity to support their beliefs. Yes, I respect their right to have an opinion, but I wish people wouldn't say they're close-minded when they in turn are close-minded toward what Christians believe. No point is right, no point is wrong - just an opinion.

You mean sterotyping or assuming that as they all use the same source material they should at least all believe in the same things rather than 1000's of different interpretations of the text that people come up with.

Also, it's not condescension:

I see a group of people worshipping one god, using one source text.

From my point of view what one person says they all say.

It's up to all of the different factions of the cult to get their own house in order.

Please take everything below as 'not getting at you' but having a direct adult discussion on some quite intimate comments. As you opened the way I hope you take what I am saying as (yes, robust) but mainly challenging your beliefs to get a dialogue going. If you find it too personal please accept my apologies there is no need to answer.



I am happy you did not end your life I really am.

However, being brutally honest, why did you not go to seek help from a shrink or counsellor and get to the root issues that way rather than have to use the crutch of religious belief to solve your issues?

That is an honest question from me. No sarcasm or anything like that. I really would like to know why you did.

If you were brought up in the arms of the Baptist faith I can understand why. However, it's not the only method to solve life problems.



I absolutely disagree with that. Presumably, that's what you have been told. And the quite common problems that you had, and we all have, you solved throughtalking to people in Church and using your faith and 'hope' to get through (again - good for you).

But, people who don't have the faith/hope that is wrapped in religion still have full lives and get over thier life problems by takling to their friends and getting secular professional help.

Two solution routes but same outcome - sorting your head out.

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I mean stereotyping in regard to what people feel about exhibits such as the one mentioned. You say that if one person believes it, everyone does. It would be the same if someone said "Well, your daughter's an alcoholic, so the whole family's an alcoholic," even if the rest of the family is sober.

To explain further, people stereotype all Christians as gay bashers, anti-abortion, and nitwits among other things. Not everyone believes that, as I have many friends who are gay (which I overlook - the person counts, not what they believe), there are those who believe in abortion in the church, and not all of us are nitwits, but are associated as such because Bush is Christian and he has admittedly made some major blunders (I will digress from this point only because all the presidents the US has elected have been nitwits in some sort or another.)

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This is your opinion, and I do respect it, however, I disagree with you, as there are those who have spoken out deference of what their clergyman has said.

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No, it's not the only method of solving problems, but there are other factors as well. For starters, the job I was at I was making ends meet, to the point where even eating out at a fast food joint was a luxury. I couldn't have afforded a shrink if I wanted to. Fortunately, there also was help in the form of a job that opened up for a costumed character/escort at Fiesta Texas, and I was hired. Some would say it's odd to have a "teen's job" on my resume between two paper jobs, but I have absolutely no regrets - it was also part of my recovery, but not all of it.

And, counselors in the past have actually caused me more harm than good. I will preface this by saying part of this will be harsh and use blunt language, but since you asked an honest question, I will give an honest response.

In junior high, I was bullied quite a bit - and the worst kind, emotionally and mentally. I was told by kids I was ugly, fat (though I was a stick), a lesbian (and ironically a whore in the same breath - both of which are wrong), and a few other things. Kids prank called me saying someone would give me a Valentine gift - only to have nothing come, and one kid, knowing that he and I had to take turns at our lockers, would sometimes had just finished getting his stuff out of the locker and close it, see me come, then return to his locker to "Open" it because so I couldn't use mine.

I would talk to a counselor about my problems, and they'd have the bully come in and talk with both of us. We'd apologize shake hands, which made the counselor happy, but the kid only got worse. One time, when the issue escalated to prank calling and the assistant principal got involved, they were going to move *me* - the victim - to other classrooms, not the offender (fortunately for my education, this didn't happen).

The worst offense was one class when I was doing a measuring assignment and we had to find items around the school to measure. We went to one class where there were desks, and there were some of my bullies there as well (before you ask - I had no choice in entering). As I was measuring a desk, one of the bullies (male) got a wooden broomstick and used it to touch me in a few places that you are not supposed to - chest and crotch. Didn't trust the counselor or the vice principal to punish the offender, so I took it to the principal - who happened to be a male (which BTW, it's not easy to discuss sexual harassment to the opposite sex), and it was settled. So, you can see why I do not trust counselors.

This might make you ask why I would trust my pastor over the counselor. The pastor has always seen me for who I am - a human in need of help. They did not pay attention to my sex, race, orientation (though that is regardless in these cases), etc. They also did not care about how wealthy I was or if I was a well-known name in society, which was another issue that I had to deal with in the schools (some of the offenders were of status and got away with it). I've always said that if a member of the clergy made me uncomfortable to talk about issues, I would walk away, and they make it clear that they will let me if I need to when I'd ask to come and visit.

In short, the clergy cared about me, where I feel counselors and shrinks are more concerned about money and jobs over what you really feel. Not all do admittedly, but the ones whom I've dealt with did. And where I lived at the time this happened, they would be more of the money grubbers unfortunately.

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I think I have not totally told you everything in my previous post in regard to how I settle some things too. In some cases I have talked with friends and as said above, secular help in the form of a school counselor. But, the pastor helped me out the most when it was something that was very serious.

And, faith in the way I used it here does not necessarily mean religious faith. People usually believe in something as they go through life. This can be religious, such as God or secular, such as faith in your friends or stuffed toy. I've seen people with no hope or faith in anything (friends, family, life in general) and they kept withdrawing into themselves to the point it drove them to suicide. If they only talked to their friends or family, got some help in the form of positive comments or referrals for help (secular help), they might be alive today.

Of course, I don't know if this is of any value in a thread that is about an exhibit of human cadavers, but hope this helps.

Thanks for that Tigger_juggler.

There's always some thread creep!

Vicky, would you care to comment on the body and blood of christ thing that was mentioned before, or the open-coffin thing (which has traumatised more than one person of my acquaintance)

Leaving aside the disputed "consensual" aspect of the donation of the bodies: why not look at dead bodies. It's like the whole "wardrobe malfunction" whoo-ha in the States that time: we all have all those things that are on show, so what's the problem?