h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Gut feeling tells me (& keep in mind mine is a German gut):

may I is more of an asking for permission (may I enquire about you family type sort of thing)

can I is more along the sort of offering assistance (can I give you a hand with that pram?)

maybe they just got less differentiated in time?

Gut feeling tells me (& keep in mind mine is a German gut):

may I is more of an asking for permission (may I enquire about you family type sort of thing)

can I is more along the sort of offering assistance (can I give you a hand with that pram?)

maybe they just got less differentiated in time?

One of my petty but educational cruelties when I worked as a primary school teacher was to respond to a child who asked, "Please can I go to the toilet?" with the answer, "Yes, of course you can," followed by, "Where do you think you're going?"

You can see why I'm no longer a teacher, but the point is that "can I?" means "am I able?" whereas "may I?" means "am I permitted?"

Knowing DJ, this was a trick question.

A pedant writes:
Thank you DJ for raising this one.
Captain K., Sir, you are no gentleman, but I bet the little swines never forgot the difference.
Those folk who begin speeches by saying:
"May I say how pleased I am to ...." deserve to receive the reply:
"Yes, you may. Are you going to say it now?" or, perhaps to make the point more clearly:
"No, you may not. Just say what you have to say. It's a pity you were not one of Captain K.'s pupils otherwise you would not ask such damnfool questions!"

Hear,hear. Pedants unite. My primary teachers were cut from the same cloth.
Realistically, however, use can for permission as well. "May I take tomorrow off for my grandmother's funeral?" is likely to be met with incomprehension.Also,think about it in other than first person singular.. What do you think of:
"Can/may you come on Tuesday?"
"She can come early to help." "She may come early" means something completely different.
"Can I help you?" sounds fine, but "May I help you?" sounds like a posher shop.
"Can we get this done early?" also impossible in my idiolect with "may".
I suspect that DJ's tangled with the fanatically polite Irish again. Use "may" for someone who is granting permission isn't a universal either. "May Johnny come out to play" sounds daft, doesn't it??

Can you dig it?

Can = ability
May = permission

This was the old way, but has been slipping for the last 50 years or so, so that May in this form is getting rare. May also has a different meaning which implies possibility as opposed to certainty.

I may come tommorrow, but then again, I may not. This implies a possibility that I might come.

When I used ask my mother "Can I have.." she inevitably replied "you can, but you may not". It reminds me of John Cleese's reply in Monty Python when asked for a lift into town: "CAN DO! ... But won't".

I just unsubscribed myself from this thread by mistake

Careful now - we can't have that can we?

May I dig it?

Of course with "may" you can employ a little English/French punnery:
May we? mais oui!

That last 'pun' was pathetique
I seldom disagree with but on this matter I think we shall have to differ. I cannot see anything wrong with any of the examples where 'may' is supposed to cause difficulty. 'May John come out to play' is quite different from 'Can John come out to play'. There comes a point where we should not lie down and let those who abuse a rather useful distinction wallow in ignorance, for their own good and for our sanity.

May implies doubt, can implies ability.

May John come out to play? means that the asker is not certain whether permission may be forthcoming and cannot even be sure of John's willingness, but I am being ever so polite in making the request.

Can John come out to play? means that I know full well that John is ready willing and able to play with me, and am pretty sure that permission will be granted by the fascist parent/guardian. It is a matter of course, and I am just being moderately polite in asking.

Gee, you guys are *so* formal. It's quite breathtakingly English!

More please...

At last, TC, another Goon fan !!
I wasn't around to hear the originals, but the occasional repeats (plus tapes) were probably my first introduction to all things zany and sureal !

Knock-knock
Grytpype-Thynne: Quick Moriary, cover the soap dish.
Mariarty: But Grytpype, it's empty !
Grytpype-Thynne: Yes, but we don't want people to know that

Can also implies will, as in 'can do organisational culture' , which goes beyond mere ability.

I'm still not convinced that "Can Nicola (lets have a girl for a change) come out to play" , is all about ability, as has been suggested. I think it still implies that permission is necesary, but is less formal than "may".

In the same way, I don't feel that "may" doesn't imply that Nicola isn't able to come out. I would have used "may" in a more subserviant role to posh parents.

Incidentally, I don't often find myself in a subserviant role anymore !

What time is it Eccles? is still my favourite Goon Show, but I do rather like the idea of sailing Dartmoor Prison to the South of France. Anyway, I remember many times asking "Can I have some juice?" and getting the reply "I don't know, can you?" But then my dad used to own a newsagents, and wouldn't serve anyone under the age of about twenty unless they said please.
I also remember a number of times walking into a room and saying "I'm feeling a bit off today" and promptly being prodded for five minutes before getting the reply, "No you don't"

I seem to recall that a cardboard replica was left on Dartmoor in it's place. And also that it sank after someone tried to tunnel their way out. It also contained lines to the effect ...

Grytpype : Moriarty, put that gramophone on
(sounds of Moriarty trying to wear gramophone)
Moriarty : Doesn't fit me at all.

Were the Goons quintessentially British ? I would like to think so.

Having discussed can/may, do we need to consider shall/will ?

We shall.
Having given it some thought, I'm not sure there is a difference between "shall" and "will" _in common usage_. There probably is in the primary school.....
*waits for answer from the blackboard end of the classroom*