h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Good morning, Supergrandad
I agree that, to a great extent, we are formed by our environment, but defining that environment in terms of nation is itself a product of the Modern world. However, the change from Modern to post-Modern world is well under way now (and we, as internet users, are an essential part of that change) and it seems unlikely that there will be any place for nationalism in the world that emerges from that change.

I was born in Stratford-on-Avon, so I tend to think of April 23rd as Shakespeare's birthday - a world day rather than a national one. Chris

Hi Chris,
But that makes me feel sad

Post modern world or no (surely by now we must be post-post-modern?) if you were born and brought up in one country then your formative years were spent surrounded by and educated by people living in that country. So as someone born in England and educated in England my formative years have been spent having the party line of the English establishment fed to me. Whilst I had no personal part in many of the things which go to make up the English nation, I have inevitably been brought up in an environment where these things are taught, either explicitly in schools or implictly by the actions and opinions of those around me, to be something I should be proud of, or ashamed of or whatever. And it doesn;t just pertain to this country. Your formative years also play a role in how you view the rest of the world, and this is why each country and subdivision within that country have certain widely held views. When growing up many people feel a strong desire to fit in. One way to fit in is to adopt similar viewpoitns and values as those around you.
The mark of maturity, in my eyes, is the ability to make up ones own mind. To take all these viewpoints, consider them and then adopt the ones you feel are you. The fact that some feel that wearing the rose, flying the flag and shouting 'Huzzah for England' (ok, maybe not!) is how best to express their feelings of identity whilst others feel no such need is just all part of lifes rich tapestry.

supergrandad
don't get me wrong, I'm glad to be British
its a reasonably free and prosperous country and because I grew up here it is the one I am most comfortable in
however I suspect that I'd feel exactly the same if I was a U.S. citizen or French
there are some things in our history that I am happy about and others I wish had never happened, as must be true for most countries
if I were to take pride in one shouldn't I feel ashamed or guilty about the other?
I don't accept the notion of collective guilt and to me it follows that collective pride is not something I can believe in
also nationalism has been a tremendously destructive force in the last century or so
any possible benefits it may have seem to me to be far outweighed by the costs

BBC,
'Also nationalism has been a tremendously destructive force in the last century or so.....'
How so? I have not seen any Civil Wars erurpting in Great Britain. The Scots have their Parliament, and a say in how England is run, while the Welsh have their Assembly. However there don't appear to be "Rivers of Blood". It was very much a bloodless coup.
The Scots have a fervent patriotic streak due to years of oppression by the English, and many of the items that identified their nationality were proscribed, such as the Plaid (Tartan), Kilts, Bagpipes and Claymores. The Welsh were not as oppressed, although the Castle were destroyed and the Llewellyn line was killed, thus ending the true Prince of Wales, whose title was adopted by Edward II for his son, which has continued to this day.
Ultimately, this has led to those Nations reclaiming their identity through readoption of those areas previously unavailable to them.
Does this now mean that The English should also reclaim their identity?
Is this nation going through a similar process that Eastern Europe has gone through, with nations returning back to their old states? What I mean by that is the Baltic states being de-unified, and seperate Serb-Croat Nations.
Does this mean a disintegration of England back to the Feudal states, ie:- Pre 'War of the Roses'?
This National identity thing raises many queries, particularly as we are a Sovereign State and are Subjects, rather than a Republic and being Citizens. This seems to dictate the 'Fly the Flag-Don't Fly the Flag' scenario.
Does anyone have a theory on this.
Dare I turn this into an Entry, as there are many points being raised in a Pro-Con way? Suggestions gratefully accepted, from either side of the Fence.

Blackberry Cat describes my position perfectly.

previous posts:
1) Supergrandad, I'm just about old enough to remember the 1950s so there's lots of things about the post-Modern world that make me sad or annoyed (or outraged) as well. However, the demise of nationalism is not one of them.

2) Ictoan, the change from pre-Modern to Modern took perhaps 2-300 years; the change to post-Modern is probably running faster but you're still looking at around 50-100 years (like all of the social "sciences", it's not something that can be measured exactly).
3) Your mental environment doesn't stop at national borders (unless you live in North Korea). You're mainly the product of the English-speaking world rather than England.

end of lunch I'm afraid so have to now

"You're mainly the product of the English-speaking world rather than England."

I'd disagree. You are mainly a product of your country and your own opinions. After all, long before you are of an age to be influenced by other countries in your world view, you will have been influence by the local environment about the other countries. So if you life in a country which thinks that the US is the best place in the world (after your own) then you are more likely to take on board their world view as coloured by your own country.

Scottish nationalism is a funny thing. Kilts, tartan et al was the preserve of vagabonds and rogues until Prince Albert went a-visiting and basically invented it as the Scots national dress. Bagpipes are Persian originally I think. Vast areas of lowland Scotland were pro english throughout many of the battles. There were probably more deaths of Scots by Scots than by the English (after all, why pay an army to trek all that way when you can pay the locals?). A lot of Glaswegians were on the English side, not something that is often mentioned amongst the rabble rousers. Both Edinburgh and Glasgow held celebrations for the English victory. England and Scotland were united under a Scotish Monarch, not an English one (James I/VI).

This isn't a discussion of england vs. scotland but just outlining that even the most vociferous nationalists don;t really seem to care much about the facts. It's all emotionally based.

But then you could say it wasn;t really the English at all, but the remnants of the expansionist Norman Royalty. So where do you draw your roots from. The Scots should presumably go back to being Viking / Irish or Pictish. Which i think is where the old Highlands / Lowlands contention comes from?

A good discusion will always bring forth views and facts that perhaps were not upermost in your mind, or as I have found here new to me.
I supose realy I just feel threatened at the thought of being dictated to by a faceless body of people from outside our country.
I was raised on Sterling, inches, lbs ozs, and pints.
I resent being told it's to be Euro's, centrimeteres, kilo's and liters.
Illogical perhaps? Change so I am told is the way forward, and I am sure in some cases this is correct. Perhaps I am just an old dog, because sometimes I feel we are going forwards backwards.

Well we did agree to take the metric system over a 100 years ago, hence why Grenwich Mean Time is used worldwide. Personally, the metric system is easier.

MMF
In terms of destructiveness of nationalismn in the last century or so I was thinking more on a European and world scale. WW1 and WW2 were both largely the result of German nationalism. How many wars have there been in the Balkans etc?
Too many examples to list.

I am a Cornishman. Cornwall is a country, not a county as the English describe it, however we are a conquered nation and have to put up with things as they are. But we fly our Cornish flag with pride on our cars, boats, and public buildings, we are not racist but proud of our heritage. I believe the English should fly the cross of St. George with equal pride.If more of you did,it would cease to be thought of as belonging to any particular political party and become a source of pride for all of the English. we Cornish are proud to be both Cornish and British perhaps the English people should be as proud to be both English and British.

Well I am a Wessexman then. Or possibly a High Wycombe man except I don't really want to be associated with this hell hole of a commuter town.

*flying the flag of the Republic of Glenn's Bedroom*

Looks like we have oppened a real can of worms. Still sometimes a good healthy stir up of the quid pro quo is called for. So wether it be Cornish, Scots, Wales, Britsh or English. More Strenth to your arm.