h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"Anyone got a rifle and a ticket to Prime Minister's Questiopn Time?"

Ok, my tuppenneth worth.

Firstly - the point of farmworkers and labourers being statistically more likely to be injured than firefighters is hardly surprising - farmworkers and labourers aren't generally professionals who are highly trained in the job they are doing, the risks involved and how to avoid them.

Secondly - the fact that firefighters are considered manual/semi-skilled labourers is just laughable - most of the equipment firefighters have to deal with, alongside the training and discipline required to do such a job must surely count as more than just 'manual labour'.

Thirdly - They asked for 40% - they get offered 11% over two years on the condition they all get sent home at night if there are no fires (Doesn't this strike anyone as a little dangerous!). So in effect they get a cut in hours and no extra money.
The 'independant' report on the fire service just seems to be a method of cutting back on expenditure!

I strongly suspect that the 40% demand is an opening bid... if the government turned round and actually offered a decent increase, without all the strings attached, then the firefighters union would probably accept it!

And I agree that paramedics, doctors, nurses etc are worth more money than they currently get... maybe if the firefighters get recognition then the others might find it easier in the future. - The arguement "Well the Paramedics work for peanuts - so why shouldn't you?" just doesn't wash with me.

Finally, anyone worried about the strike - go move to Plymouth - between the dockyard and the Fireschool in Torpoint there are probably 50 x the number of trained firefighters in Navy Blue uniforms than there are working today for the city's fire service (and for certain things they are actually better equipped than the fire brigade).Been there, seen it, got the T-shirt .

Trouble is, if you take this lot out, some other morons with delusions of adequacy will attempt to run the country. It's usually the ones that wield the rifle...

Whisky- Independent Report! That was the phrase I was looking for! I've had an exam this morning, and myhead's gone a bit wibbly, If you know what i mean.

I do hope that the several references to the 'well they work for X so you should too' arguments are not due to my posting. If so then I'm afraid my intentions were severly misunderstood. What I was trying to point out was that 23K ain;t exactly a poverty wage and it is perfectly possible to live on it. Me not exactly being Mr. Controversial on this site, I hope nobody really thought I was trying to argue from such an indefensible corner.

Maybe - but at least you can still spell 'independent'

Oops simpost!

Don't worry Ictoan - I wasn't getting at anyone in particular - just ranting in general about the stupidity and incompetence of the current government...

Erm - Did someone let Maggie back into N°10 when no-one was looking - after all - someone must be pulling the Tony's strings - normally it's GWB - but I can't see him getting het up over our fire service (unless of course it's harbouring 'suspected terrorists'

Do you want to borrow my rifle? I'm going to PMQ with it next week, you're welcome to come along...

Nope, but I've got a couple of barrels of Gunpowder - shall we start a Guy Fawkes Historical Reinactment Society?

I also think the Firefighters are being unreasonable.

They were being paid too little, but an 11% rise is reasonable and far more than most public sector workers could expect to get. Also, the Labour government *cannot* give in to strike action as the tories are poised to shout "A return to the dark days of the 1970s/Labour have not changed" at the first sign of Blair and co. capitulating.

They have everything to lose with this stupid strike. Public sympathy will evaporate following the first death that would have been prevented without a strike. The anti-union tory press must be sharpening those pencils with glee, waiting to report on it.

The FBU are way out of their depth, here. I predict that the firefighters (and the rest of the country) will gain nothing but misery from the forthcoming strikes.

"11% rise is reasonable"

Maybe it would be reasonable if it was an 11% rise - and not:

4% this year, 7% next year (unless we can figure out a way of avoiding paying you it) and a cut in the number of hours you are paid so that we avoid paying you any extra money at all!

I'd have to agree with Whiskey on this one.

My own twists and turns on the general theme would be: (apologies if this is repeating - can't be bothered to read all backlog)

Firefighters are worth £30K a year if you ask me. Regardless of the actual increase.

Nurses and Teachers are disgustingly under-paid and over-worked. This is not an excuse to treat everyone else the same way. Instead of thinking of it in terms of this - Nurses aren't paid much why should Firemighters be? Think of it in terms of this - If Firefighters are paid more, then Nurses might get a pay rise as well.

I don't think too many people would begrudge them that. I know I wouldn't.

"Maybe it would be reasonable if it was an 11% rise - and not:

4% this year, 7% next year (unless we can figure out a way of avoiding paying you it) and a cut in the number of hours you are paid so that we avoid paying you any extra money at all!"

Fair enough, but weren't they demanding 40%? Hence the strike?

...and round and round we go...

W****E, the reason why firefighters are relatively underpaid and treated like semi-skilled workers is not because the government's screwing them but because the firefighters insisted on it. The last time there was a strike the FBU got exactly what they wanted: wages for firefighters were pegged to stay in line with the top 25% of manual workers. I'm not sure where you get the idea that firefighters have been chronically underpaid for the past 20 years. "Over the last 20 years this formula has served us very well" is what Andy Gilchrist, General Secretary of the FBU, wrote in March of this year. He'll be on strike in a couple of hours.

Good God would you do their job for a start salary in the region of £21,000 before tax and pension contributions of 11% of gross pay, with the possibility of that rising to £23,000 over time unless you get promoted and the possibility of endangering your life every time you get called out?

If your answer is no then how much would you have to be paid to do the job?

Oh and remember that you only get the £23,000 once you have had almost 5 years training, gained an HGV/PSV licence and no doubt risked your neck on a monthly basis.

Which is all well and good, except the Government...oh sorry *the employers* (because it isn't the goverrnment that won't agree to the findings of the independant commitee they appointed, but *the employers*), abandoned the formula, not the FBU.

Where did you get that impression? It's certainly not what the FBU say.

I can't see that a proposition based on the fact that Gilchrist has committed his Union (with over 80% backing) to a strike with no basis in reality is entirely right.

If the formula that has served them well for twenty years was still in place, why kick out now?

Because Gilchrist commissioned a study published in May which showed that if the firefighters had gone for a deal based on average earnings instead of manual sector earnings in 1977 they'd now be £100 per week better off. Hence the 40% wage claim.