h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

see? told you they would.

Cheers Spiff

Speaking of mockney, has anyone else noticed the latest Jamie Oliver advert on TV. At the end, he tells his mother to "Keep it shtumm".

Possibly I'm a little ignorant of proper cockney speech, but I thought that 'shtumm' meant 'silent', and was usually used in the phrase "keep shtumm", without the superfluous 'it'?

Indeed, I'd have to agree with you on that one. In our house it was usually shortened to just 'schtumm' and an admonishing finger wagged in our direction!

Ah well, I guess if the usage is evolving then that proves mockney (nice term!) is alive and well!

I think I understand the use/meaning of superfluous .... the super- bit suggests more, over and above .... but what is fluous .... and can somthing be underfluous ?

Hi Nikki-D,

Superfluous is a great word, I think. Wonderful vowel combination! Terribly sad thing to be, though.

As you say, 'super' is 'above' and more specifically in this case, 'over'. 'fluere' is 'to flow' and that which is 'superfluous' is the 'overflow' and by extension, that which is unnecessary.

It also gives us the terrific noun, 'superfluity'.

In French, as is often the case with these Latin-based words, it is much more widely used. A 'surplus' in English would be a 'superflu' in French (although I think 'surplus' exists as well in French).

Don't know of any 'sub-fluous' equivalent. Anyone? I did find the wonderful 'subfuscous' in Chambers, while looking for a 'subf-' word.

Seeya
Spiff

This morning, for some odd reason, I started wondering why there isn't a gendered word for 'cousin' in English.

Other familial relationships are either described in solely gendered words - (great) aunt, uncle, niece, or nephew, or with both neutral and gendered words - (grand) mother/father/parent, brother/sister/sibling, wife/husband/spouse, (grand) son/daughter/child.

Is it something to do with the origins of the words in another language, or is there some other reason.?

Come to think of it, why isn't there an ungendered word for aunts&uncles, or nieces&nephews?

PS

It's really good to see you back, Nikki.

Our spelunking (is that the right spelling) friend Potholer has raised a very interesting question! All I can say at this moment is that the whole subject of gender (sex) and family relationships has a darker side (incest) that virtually prohibits even thinking about it. Maybe 'inhibits' is a better word.

Please realise we're not talking about grammatical gender here, otherwise my point would be as silly as a first year French student giggling at 'la' and 'le' juxtapositions in a kama sutra kinda way.

Yes, cousins can be male or female and there are no gender specific terms for male or female cousins. And yes indeed, there is no word that incorporates aunts and uncles as a non-gender-specific group of parental siblings. As Potholer asks, why!??

Sexual identity and cultural practices must play a part in these distinctions. But so far only the fact that we usually 'know' our cousins at a pre-pubic age in life (and thereby, innocence makes the distinction unnecessary if not impossible) is the only suggestion I can offer. There are cultural taboos about relationships with cousins that render any (even spoken) consciousness of sexual distinction unsavoury.

From a child's persepective Aunts and Uncles are very different beings, and in our innocence we attribute these differences to gender before we are old enough to realize what gender really is. And yet these impressions will still become part of our adult sexual prejudices.

And I suppose we all know people, especially those with single Moms, who have an unlikely lot of 'Uncles'.

*contemplates inhibitions*
jwf

The use of the spelling 'Gor' as in Gor Blimey amuses me. It is quite common these days and that fact will prove my point:

It was originally 'Cor' a contraction of Corpus as in Corpus Cristi, the 'body of Christ'. Phrases employing reference to Christ's wounds and suffering, were once among the holiest of holies, and the most solemn and holy oaths were taken in the name of Christ's blood. So, naturally the worst blasphemies were at the expense of the most sacred terms.

'Swounds' (now archaic) was short for god's or Christ's wounds, but 'Bloody' and others with 'Cor' in them originate from these antique blasphemies and were once considerd the most offensive cusses a man could muster. Blimey may be a softening of bloody just as Gor is a (somewhat ironic considering the pun 'gore') softening of Cor.

jwf

Was I really posting 3 in the original? Cor blimey! I'll go t'foot of ar stairs. I've been round longer than perhaps I should admit
I thought that the corruption of Cor into Gor was simply one of the way that it was spoken. Having now lived and worked in London for the past few years and met people who really do come from the east end, some really do speak like that.

Thinking deeper, I suppose a neutral or collective word for aunts and uncles *might* be slightly less use than the collective neutral words siblings, parents, children, since any one person might have more than one set of aunts and uncles, and therefore saying
"My XXXXXs (insert imaginary aunts+uncles word here) are visiting this weekend"
could be more ambiguous than a similar statement referring to parents or children.

Also, I suppose it is possible that aunt/uncle originally referred only to a sibling of a parent, rather than their spouse (who is usually genetically unrelated) and the extension of the corresponding title to their spouse is partly a matter of courtesy, at least as far as the legal definitions are concerned.?

I've sometimes come across a reference to our 'Cousins' refering to the folk on the other side of the Atlantic .... I think it's more specifically citizens of the USA rather than Canada .... though parhaps the Canadians should be 'Cousins' and the Americans 'Cousins once removed' ....

In the context of the USA, there certainly seems to be the dangerous under-currents identified by jwf ....

Has anyone else felt that ?

There are exceptions, of course, Kaeori being much closer than a cousin once removed !!

Yes I think both of you qualify as 'kissing cousins"

Those are not undercurrents m'dear, it's full blown Religious Faith in all its grandeur, supporting a pirate form of mercantilism guaranteed by a holy document called the Constitution and an economy based on militarism fed by agri-business.
Nothing much has really changed since Pericles, or even Egypt and Sumeria, except the means to Power is now limited to a smaller percentage of opportunists than ever before.
The pyramidal hierarchy of social structure has gotten very tall and very, very thin at the top. And the base is so burdened, so weighted by duty, debt and doubt the structure will last a thousand years or a mile in another man's shoes, whichever comes first.

jwf

Nikki - This is such a great relief. Thank you for coming back.

Post 3694 is a hard act to follow, but I have so much to say... so, here goes:

Here comes my shopping list in reply to the backlog again. And it's really a meaty one (the backlog I mean. My RL shopping list this week is somewhat leaner, I'm trying yet again to lose some weight) - those last 20 or so postings are as rich and fascinating as anything in the original thread, all those months back.

In fact, probably more so, because we have shed some people who lost interest, and become a rather eccentric group of ramblers, delving into the endless depths of the English language, with all its twists, turns, nooks, crannies and pitfalls. Are we not all Potholers really, linked together by a rope of dedication to getting to the bottom of all those meanings and usages, pausing occasionally on a plateau of dry rock to regard where we've been, contemplate upon what might come, and to peruse upon why we're here at all.

*pause to check torch batteries and offer a thermos of round*

Or we can take a closer look at Spiff's enjoyment of words per se. Dare we admit that words alone can evoke a sensuous thrill that draws us back to this Thread time after time, and forces us to do the penance of checking the backlog with some perverse mental masochism after a week's absence? Perhaps we are a group of linguistic nymphomaniacs?

Maybe there is often more than one right answer to a question. I was always of the definite opinion, for example, that "Gor Blimey" just meant "God blind me". Although, on closer examination, that doesn't make a lot of sense, but then nor do a lot of things Biblical when taken out of context. God did blind Saul on his way to Damascus, so why not?

As for cousins, etc. Isn't there the expression "coz" (which I - probably mistakenly again - always thought was a corruption of "cousin") which is used for all sorts of people in Shakespeare - mainly drinking companions.

In German, apart from the 'Kusin' and 'Kusine' (lifted from the French. The male version is pronounced the same as the French) there are older-fashioned words "Base" for the female cousin (pron: barzer) and "Vetter" (pron: fetter) for the male one. Perhaps Mycroft can find something English that comes from the same roots.

Where is Mycroft? Has anyone offended him?

Back to the subject: I can't imagine that children have such an influence on language that they could have been the cause of the loss of a complete word in the English language (either for different cousins or for the collective noun for uncles and aunts), as jwf suggests. It's probably just usage - or the lack of - that have caused the disappearance - if ever there were such words. Uncles and aunts can be bundled together as "parents' siblings" - but that would exclude all the married-on versions.

I also dare to disagree with jwf that taboos or sexual distinctions have any influence on language. Hell's bells - engineers talk about 'female' and 'male' parts to a connection. Everyone knows what they mean. That's the first example that springs to mind, but there are other 'taboos' that we use in everyday language. A project, for example, can be "aborted". Or "dead". Both tricky subjects when touched on in general conversation.

As, in general, siblings get married more or less around the same time, most of us grow up knowing our aunts and uncles only in conjunction with their spouses, so from a child's point of view, sometimes it is difficult to work out who exactly is your Mum's sister or your Dad's brother or whatever. As has been mentioned, there may also be a legal necessity for having a word for blood related aunts and uncles and the others.

Which brings us to the delicate subject of "sister-in-law". This is both the wife of your brother and the sister of your husband. It would be extremely useful sometimes to be able to differentiate. (also brother-in-law, of course)

(sorry this posting is so long)

And - on a completely different subject I was fascinated to see Potholer's use of the words "Thinking deeper". There is this theory that society can be divided into visual and acoustic types. These are to be recognised by their use of words like "I see what you mean" - or "That sounds like... to me". This theory would have to be expanded to potholers who think in three dimensions as opposed to landlubbers who probably only think in two as a rule and would have said in that case "taking this further" or "expanding on that".

Did anyone else enjoy "A Knight's Tale" as much as I did? My favourite line being when Chaucer exclaims "Oh my giddy aunt" - hadn't heard that one for ages.

Or "since old leatherhead kicked the bucket" as my father used to say.

Not offended, although I did receive what some might call an insult

In a technical sense, cousin does specify a gender, although of the parent rather than the child: it comes from the Latin consobrinus/consobrina meaning the son/daughter of one's mother's sister. The word was actually used most widely in a sense close to what John was looking for: a cousin is any member of the extended family who isn't your parent or sibling. There aren't any gendered synonyms for cousin left in English as far as I know, although there must have been in OE because it was inflected. It's a bit of an odd omission from the lexicon, as there's presumably a need for it in genealogy when it comes to the line of succession, but I can't recall any major titles changing hands between cousins that I could check against. Coz is short for cousin, and if you specifically want to refer to the children of aunts and uncles use cousins-german (or first cousins, but it isn't as much fun).

Flying off at a slight tangerine, while working in Russia a while back a colleague tried to fix me up with his sister. Every time he used the word, she forcefully told him to say cousin instead. His English was otherwise pretty decent, so I'm wondering if anyone knows whether sister and cousin can be the same word in Russian: I didn't want to ask at the time, just in case both of them were right.

'Swounds' good word - probably corrupted in to "Zounds!"?

Onto the Gor Blimey!

Is the 'gor' the same word that is used in 'gormless', and if so, where did 'gorm' come from?

Does this mean that Stephen J. Gould (frinstance) is, or has, gorm?

Gormless is unrelated to gor/cor. Its direct predecessor is gaum/gawm meaning sense, and it ultimately stems from Old Norse. It might also be related to the Gaelic gorm (e.g. Cairngorm), meaning blue or illustrious.

Hi all,

On the origin of 'Gor blimey' jwf said:

"It was originally 'Cor' a contraction of Corpus as in Corpus Cristi, the 'body of Christ'. Phrases employing reference to Christ's wounds and suffering, were once among the holiest of holies, and the most solemn and holy oaths were taken in the name of Christ's blood. So, naturally the worst blasphemies were at the expense of the most sacred terms."

[...] Blimey may be a softening of bloody just as Gor is a (somewhat ironic considering the pun 'gore') softening of Cor.

jwf"


Hi Jay-Dub-ya,

I'm afraid I don't agree with your explanation here; did you see my suggestion (post 3679) that 'Gor blimey' was a corruption of 'God blind me!'.

It's odd that you argue much the same basic theory (corruption of a medieval oath) from a different starting point. All the info I can find confirms 'Gor' to be a corruption of 'God' in that particular oath, and 'Cor' to be derived from 'Gor'. TC also concurs.

*sends ball gently into jw's court*

A rather different use of 'blinding' in UK English is that which means 'excellent', ie, an action so 'brilliant' (literally 'shining') that it actually blinds onlookers. It is much loved by football (soccer) commentators and indeed, the whole footballing community, who speak a dialect of their own anyway. A variation on the theme is the terrific - "Well, the lad's played a blinder!" Is there such a thing as a 'Soccer phrase book'. It would be a big seller among foreign players coming into UK teams and having to try to communicate with football managers/players/journalists etc, all of whom speak FA dialect most of the time.

In going back to have a look at what was said about 'Gor Blimey', I spotted W 's gag that it was better to be a beaker person than a mug. I realise that out of context and some time later, it lacks a little of its punch, but I ed!

I had also missed Ictoan's (Hi Octane! ) statement that 'Blimey' won't be heard in normal conversation. Well, it all depends whether my conversations can be considered 'normal', and I admit that the jury is still out, but I *do* use the word as an explanation of surprise, and sometimes mild incredulity, perhaps preceded or followed by 'Really?'. Course, I may be the last bastion of those who regularly exhort the Lord to blind them.

Incidentally, I am no cockney (Don't think I've *ever* heard Bow Bells, let alone as I was being born!) and I only ever say 'Guv' in jest.

As for the cousin question (Robert Ludlum novel?), I don't know what socio-psychological implications may be seen in the availability or not of the various related () words, but the French word for 'relative' is 'parents' and is usually used for non-gender specific purposes. It is of course very general, applying equally to fathers, mothers, cousins, great-grandparents and *any* relative.

In French 'cousin' is masculine with the female counterpart 'cousine'. There was a stage, I think, in the development of Middle English, when Norman vocabulary was being mixed with the surviving 'English' language of the pre-Norman 'Anglo-Saxon' population. Could it be that initially 'cousin' might have been pronounced differently depending on the gender, without that pronunciation difference being reflected in the spelling? Just an off-the-cuff theory.

Hi TC, thanks for what I take as a lovely compliment ("Dare we admit that words alone can evoke a sensuous thrill" - yes, by all means! )

"Perhaps we are a group of linguistic nymphomaniacs?" Certainly not! 'Zounds' definitely floats my boat, though!

"Zounds, coz, what new devilry is this?"

Seeya
Spiff

*speaking of hard ax to follow*

Linguistic nymphomaniacs, eh?

Do 'slag' and 'slaggard' come from the same root? Or is there some other perverse relationship between them? And which contributed the verb 'slagged' as in off? And who insulted Mycroft? Could anyone who dated a Russian ever be offended?

*Brit-Eng, best damned thread in the house, thank you all*

peace
jwf